From 32y-xSwoJBgg02wuqkpzq0ouiqt.kwutwrjivowwotmozw2x0.kwu@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 15:55:57 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <32y-xSwoJBgg02wuqkpzq0ouiqt.kwutwrjivowwotmozw2x0.kwu@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwNs7-0002Qf-L5 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:55:56 -0700 Received: by vws3 with SMTP id 3sf1711566vws.16 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:55:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=55QIoSU2QDHB9S5qVgSLzLD5vt0BwlnUMQ+rNk3Eqr4=; b=Cc+xGGSZPTyz2PhWUljkhldf0DfyB25kpAhcXYVlL3yUKhnVmq4XLQb10rFKTUJ9Wv EmcupCY9qGsrYV8TqNCQ52hrJ/gQW5au06JdbAJrTfT5Et2Jv60psFyWsh0DLVdwsGyj ibbghWqbUfvEkQbydlsi0W/uvMuUsEpYqQep4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=3wP0ZP1sBZjRwRipVcSd/jnkznHjk4uXVDv6SmGDIda6KedtVawppXdWThxBMZcnRu zRkWX1RUu0gy/15EN2uWPBOuVEgkhMFdjl/dUKyu+0YhVulb42S4/xXWGiRvjAyymEXn 86LagaXSthAhOQyOlUMKd7IgQE43Yq0Ns5hPk= Received: by 10.220.109.39 with SMTP id h39mr122202vcp.12.1269903323752; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:55:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.3 with SMTP id n3ls1679358vck.3.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.8 with SMTP id g8mr296185vcy.1.1269903322652; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.8 with SMTP id g8mr296184vcy.1.1269903322602; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f178.google.com (mail-gy0-f178.google.com [209.85.160.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si11552439vws.0.2010.03.29.15.55.21; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.178; Received: by gye5 with SMTP id 5so1826218gye.9 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:55:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.133.20 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:54:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <27513e551003291540l6e1b9ba8nde1ed8fac23e41e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <702226df1003290711v11a9e957h537d99b637f40414@mail.gmail.com> <20100329143528.GA3085@sdf.lonestar.org> <702226df1003290953j22b0fc4dg3e9ffc1460b88882@mail.gmail.com> <20100329210845.GB24462@sdf.lonestar.org> <27513e551003291540l6e1b9ba8nde1ed8fac23e41e4@mail.gmail.com> From: Christopher Doty Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:54:59 -0700 Received: by 10.100.246.15 with SMTP id t15mr2538700anh.29.1269903321103; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: Lojban: You're Doing it Worng (was: Re: [lojban] la .alis.) To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ae71ea92dbbfd5b1 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/6417c510bc7b9c Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68debcb5a7f270482f86811 --0016e68debcb5a7f270482f86811 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 It seems like one first step would be to get all of the country names in there (in whatever form--fu'ivla or cmene, but not gismu, in my opinion), but get the cultural stuff out, so that the word is referring ONLY to the country. One presumably wants to be able to refer to the Chinese economy, still, but without the cultural stuff. One could then have gismu that were: x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3 x1 reflects culture x2 in aspect x3 x1 reflects nationality x2 in aspect x3 That greatly reduces the number of gismu needed, while removing all of the current assumptions that cultural/language/nationality are tied together. Plus, it makes it far easier to talk about cultures/languages/nationalities that don't have established gismu. On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:40, Oren wrote: > I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gismu, since: > > 1) You'll never be able to have a 'complete set;' there will always be > unequal representation > 2) You'll never be able to find objective definitions for these > cultures/languages/nations/whatever > > ...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi'uvla or even just > standardized cmene, > otherwise you're diluting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable > elements. > > We just need to fill in the blanks: > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e68debcb5a7f270482f86811 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems like one first step would be to get all of the country names in th= ere (in whatever form--fu'ivla or cmene, but not gismu, in my opinion),= but get the cultural stuff out, so that the word is referring ONLY to the = country. =A0One presumably wants to be able to refer to the Chinese economy= , still, but without the cultural stuff.

One could then have gismu that were:

x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3
x1 reflects culture x2 in = aspect x3
x1 reflects nationality x2 in aspect x3

That greatly reduces the number of gismu needed, while removing = all of the current assumptions that cultural/language/nationality are tied = together. =A0Plus, it makes it far easier to talk about cultures/languages/= nationalities that don't have established gismu.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:40= , Oren <get.oren= @gmail.com> wrote:
I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gi= smu, since:

1) You'll never be able to have a 'c= omplete set;' there will always be unequal representation
2) You'll never be able to find=A0objective definitions for these cultu= res/languages/nations/whatever

...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi= 9;uvla or even just standardized cmene,
otherwise you're=A0di= luting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable elements.
=A0<= /div>
We just need to fill in the blanks:=A0http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cu= ltural+fu'ivla

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