From 3WDaxSwoJBos7931xrw6x7v1px0.r3103yqp2v33v0tv63947.r31@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 16:23:34 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f141.google.com ([209.85.210.141]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3WDaxSwoJBos7931xrw6x7v1px0.r3103yqp2v33v0tv63947.r31@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwOIo-0004Jh-PW for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:23:33 -0700 Received: by yxe5 with SMTP id 5sf858174yxe.2 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:23:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=ymyWad+SE0CZpkGYOANBy4eFOXXfDJ5evzH46S4tcpY=; b=HzWbz8WUBHFtj2xBde3OZpPEFApjTlLo/0li9T8RUuyc/f3iSy/TrBhXdtiGtiUxvQ V2GghpAYYHOx4hKNlqzOdAXWbh9aY1x7upDhk5YXYhBGTsMqwcn9pjrM99YODweikbuK 0n47FBIF41soPUUJ/0SOzwVVkm1NJp0+2Bm9Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=L0a1MkQucU2aeYsM8W5DJS/icJtyRby0ET6ux2c5NrHQ3OE/MCH6N+aCB80mj4+mcY mNjD4n3AXMPQXoJUINhqU2OmeyM9fCFYE8J6k2zz247mG+9kFVH+U7j5I6JpwjWR+c0g WgUsu18JxpyJ2ZA7UHcQCzWCVeKnMlVj4ddu4= Received: by 10.91.82.11 with SMTP id j11mr423579agl.41.1269904984138; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:23:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.66.23 with SMTP id t23ls638402agk.6.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.11.27 with SMTP id o27mr6552066agi.0.1269904981594; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.11.27 with SMTP id o27mr6552062agi.0.1269904981479; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f218.google.com (mail-gx0-f218.google.com [209.85.217.218]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 12si338041gxk.10.2010.03.29.16.23.00; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.218 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.218; Received: by gxk10 with SMTP id 10so4359104gxk.10 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:23:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.133.20 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:22:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <702226df1003290711v11a9e957h537d99b637f40414@mail.gmail.com> <20100329143528.GA3085@sdf.lonestar.org> <702226df1003290953j22b0fc4dg3e9ffc1460b88882@mail.gmail.com> <20100329210845.GB24462@sdf.lonestar.org> <27513e551003291540l6e1b9ba8nde1ed8fac23e41e4@mail.gmail.com> From: Christopher Doty Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:22:40 -0700 Received: by 10.101.170.33 with SMTP id x33mr6237584ano.139.1269904980097; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: Lojban: You're Doing it Worng (was: Re: [lojban] la .alis.) To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.218 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ae71ea92dbbfd5b1 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/f8a5b30d47b24137 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5bd593cbad90482f8cbb2 --001636c5bd593cbad90482f8cbb2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Can someone fill me in on that page? I haven't seen it before, but it looks like a previous attempt to create fu'ivla for... "Nationality/Ethnicity/Language" ? That gets rid of the gismu, but seems to have the same problem... And what is the unlabeled column? Thanks, Chris On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:54, Christopher Doty wrote: > It seems like one first step would be to get all of the country names in > there (in whatever form--fu'ivla or cmene, but not gismu, in my opinion), > but get the cultural stuff out, so that the word is referring ONLY to the > country. One presumably wants to be able to refer to the Chinese economy, > still, but without the cultural stuff. > > One could then have gismu that were: > > x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3 > x1 reflects culture x2 in aspect x3 > x1 reflects nationality x2 in aspect x3 > > That greatly reduces the number of gismu needed, while removing all of the > current assumptions that cultural/language/nationality are tied together. > Plus, it makes it far easier to talk about cultures/languages/nationalities > that don't have established gismu. > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:40, Oren wrote: > >> I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gismu, since: >> >> 1) You'll never be able to have a 'complete set;' there will always be >> unequal representation >> 2) You'll never be able to find objective definitions for these >> cultures/languages/nations/whatever >> >> ...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi'uvla or even just >> standardized cmene, >> otherwise you're diluting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable >> elements. >> >> We just need to fill in the blanks: >> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla >> >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636c5bd593cbad90482f8cbb2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can someone fill me in on that page? =A0I haven't seen it before, but i= t looks like a previous attempt to create fu'ivla for... "National= ity/Ethnicity/Language" ? =A0That gets rid of the gismu, but seems to = have the same problem...

And what is the unlabeled column?

T= hanks,

Chris

On = Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:54, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:=
It seems like one first step would be to ge= t all of the country names in there (in whatever form--fu'ivla or cmene= , but not gismu, in my opinion), but get the cultural stuff out, so that th= e word is referring ONLY to the country. =A0One presumably wants to be able= to refer to the Chinese economy, still, but without the cultural stuff.
One could then have gismu that were:

x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3
x1 reflects culture x2 in = aspect x3
x1 reflects nationality x2 in aspect x3

That greatly reduces the number of gismu needed, while removing = all of the current assumptions that cultural/language/nationality are tied = together. =A0Plus, it makes it far easier to talk about cultures/languages/= nationalities that don't have established gismu.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:40= , Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gi= smu, since:

1) You'll never be able to have a 'c= omplete set;' there will always be unequal representation
2) You'll never be able to find=A0objective definitions for these cultu= res/languages/nations/whatever

...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi= 9;uvla or even just standardized cmene,
otherwise you're=A0di= luting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable elements.
=A0<= /div>
We just need to fill in the blanks:=A0http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cu= ltural+fu'ivla


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