From 3M0SxSwgJBnQYWl.gjWfYeSad.UgedgbTSfYggYdWYjgmhk.Uge@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 17:22:41 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f198.google.com ([209.85.217.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3M0SxSwgJBnQYWl.gjWfYeSad.UgedgbTSfYggYdWYjgmhk.Uge@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwPE1-0007Kf-Mb for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:22:40 -0700 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22sf19070717gxk.4 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:22:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=dRvxcwaQRY/FGLJQyAzBMpGaauwRbJhso2ensyAP8D8=; b=Io6tus0kI/SBiwgIr1KEKdIxofBhKgfFGLmdIsT7bHvufdrcicsF5ebAB6UxBcjQ+u TdAviqSPuYj2rQ/LHCfVvp9h6avy57FEITAnCzspEEYpAwV9U2Ca9NVVM2/2SdeJDx2A w0V+3A7yw8M/MKm+JMVCH3o151LyqcEKQNcHQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=YtrAG6bR83E3WIqvVb8/RXwHbOXa/0DoE7CqrZZ+bQJ0AxHC06iWVMy68a9HGrN8/z xEA1ZsVRkTVV4OASmUZ0XsFFeMbGYnYCLtTveUQIiUtp2nYbpVy77bcG1T0AbY2sNMP/ VEI6RFYsr2qetgFPV1CdVpFYBiXxZl5+t6M7k= Received: by 10.91.101.18 with SMTP id d18mr436547agm.55.1269908531912; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:22:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.28.1 with SMTP id k1ls1979465ibc.3.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.147.196 with SMTP id m4mr380161ibv.4.1269908530801; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.147.196 with SMTP id m4mr380160ibv.4.1269908530764; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f43.google.com (mail-pw0-f43.google.com [209.85.160.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si660431iwn.1.2010.03.29.17.22.09; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.43; Received: by pwi8 with SMTP id 8so7705399pwi.16 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:22:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:21:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <702226df1003290711v11a9e957h537d99b637f40414@mail.gmail.com> <20100329143528.GA3085@sdf.lonestar.org> <702226df1003290953j22b0fc4dg3e9ffc1460b88882@mail.gmail.com> <20100329210845.GB24462@sdf.lonestar.org> <27513e551003291540l6e1b9ba8nde1ed8fac23e41e4@mail.gmail.com> From: Oren Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:21:49 +0800 Received: by 10.143.84.2 with SMTP id m2mr2357630wfl.284.1269908529166; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <27513e551003291721u162242d6v8602e207b6d50f94@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: Lojban: You're Doing it Worng (was: Re: [lojban] la .alis.) To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ae71ea92dbbfd5b1 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/4b60212b1649e4ee Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd5d092c7392f0482f99ee8 --000e0cd5d092c7392f0482f99ee8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Filled in the table headings and added a 'type' column to specify political, ethnic and/or linguistic relevance/validity. Check it out http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla co'o mi'e korbi On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 07:22, Christopher Doty wrote: > Can someone fill me in on that page? I haven't seen it before, but it > looks like a previous attempt to create fu'ivla for... > "Nationality/Ethnicity/Language" ? That gets rid of the gismu, but seems to > have the same problem... > > And what is the unlabeled column? > > Thanks, > > Chris > > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:54, Christopher Doty wrote: > >> It seems like one first step would be to get all of the country names in >> there (in whatever form--fu'ivla or cmene, but not gismu, in my opinion), >> but get the cultural stuff out, so that the word is referring ONLY to the >> country. One presumably wants to be able to refer to the Chinese economy, >> still, but without the cultural stuff. >> >> One could then have gismu that were: >> >> x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3 >> x1 reflects culture x2 in aspect x3 >> x1 reflects nationality x2 in aspect x3 >> >> That greatly reduces the number of gismu needed, while removing all of the >> current assumptions that cultural/language/nationality are tied together. >> Plus, it makes it far easier to talk about cultures/languages/nationalities >> that don't have established gismu. >> >> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:40, Oren wrote: >> >>> I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gismu, since: >>> >>> 1) You'll never be able to have a 'complete set;' there will always be >>> unequal representation >>> 2) You'll never be able to find objective definitions for these >>> cultures/languages/nations/whatever >>> >>> ...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi'uvla or even just >>> standardized cmene, >>> otherwise you're diluting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable >>> elements. >>> >>> We just need to fill in the blanks: >>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla >>> >>> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd5d092c7392f0482f99ee8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Filled in the table headings and added a 'type' co= lumn to specify political, ethnic and/or linguistic relevance/validity. Che= ck it out


co'o mi'e korbi

On Tue, = Mar 30, 2010 at 07:22, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
Can someone fill me in on that page? =A0I h= aven't seen it before, but it looks like a previous attempt to create f= u'ivla for... "Nationality/Ethnicity/Language" ? =A0That gets= rid of the gismu, but seems to have the same problem...

And what is the unlabeled column?

T= hanks,

Chris

=
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:54, Christopher D= oty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems like one first step would be to get= all of the country names in there (in whatever form--fu'ivla or cmene,= but not gismu, in my opinion), but get the cultural stuff out, so that the= word is referring ONLY to the country. =A0One presumably wants to be able = to refer to the Chinese economy, still, but without the cultural stuff.
One could then have gismu that were:

x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3
x1 reflects culture x2 in = aspect x3
x1 reflects nationality x2 in aspect x3

That greatly reduces the number of gismu needed, while removing = all of the current assumptions that cultural/language/nationality are tied = together. =A0Plus, it makes it far easier to talk about cultures/languages/= nationalities that don't have established gismu.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:40= , Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gi= smu, since:

1) You'll never be able to have a 'c= omplete set;' there will always be unequal representation
2) You'll never be able to find=A0objective definitions for these cultu= res/languages/nations/whatever

...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi= 9;uvla or even just standardized cmene,
otherwise you're=A0di= luting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable elements.
=A0<= /div>
We just need to fill in the blanks:=A0http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cu= ltural+fu'ivla


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