From 3H0qxSwoJBmYOEPMnTYXVEcELSS.GSQPSNFERKSSKPIKVSYTW.GSQ@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 17:47:54 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3H0qxSwoJBmYOEPMnTYXVEcELSS.GSQPSNFERKSSKPIKVSYTW.GSQ@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwPcT-0008Tl-9M for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:47:53 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf17961935gyd.16 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:47:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MFN9ntfr8kImzniXimLzsw09FrL8SsbsRaYbdD7xxWI=; b=JrftLcTv8a/5+FDlxPYfcleUYOTCyqVmwfBEjVVghXputRCITu4iF83xudcGhDtK9y gysnYFsXzK9O8DJXadsTTvRe5CuuU1v/zU492otUbhsdc6YRidWFgdPhtHjOYa0rnipi 0xpbBwWQqmMDvqdxELFObpYCJE1WlCUthQWO4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lrXJa/+pcYK03lzzaeYbTs1kkNTYVS+wRV7KQWx62A/oaW/3LU7vUpZmVUjNZGhjgn 59UyKHD3WrFbVUHoj7cxI67CyyyjMiF0gpar3pMqB0B1Mnatqej/PmNQ73TJl5bUZ2AM aJsTyRm1pkrCoEGyYDe1p3nS4hX3pYLOe8V6g= Received: by 10.101.42.20 with SMTP id u20mr118724anj.50.1269910047582; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:47:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.93.10 with SMTP id v10ls649735agl.3.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.1.23 with SMTP id 23mr6748636aga.14.1269910046456; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.1.23 with SMTP id 23mr6748635aga.14.1269910046408; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.124]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 19si218067yxe.3.2010.03.29.17.47.25; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.124 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.124; Received: (qmail 3548 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Mar 2010 00:47:24 -0000 Message-ID: <705637.99285.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: D8m_NjgVM1nPTFN3emeYrqtNfLKBCLnUkqRCsdxAzEBD0_j sSYQpljBv2KBZRyqLFX0Fxj1XJxYcm_ZaK28C66y4aQ1ccrDqwsK9VICMBpp HDDFThIJhhi9rZO4MuUEJt4Z66.Spg0thDia25o6ZPcGJJxZ5K4hP_wWdHDt odGC9O5khPQOswryG0ksXxF8YJhm0csaiFnKhBtGVG9NDjesNp8PmwZFT99J p.Dhm8q7Fe8_erCc6zk08xC2iEGSgXflygaY.Oh4Sj.tW_DS1FWicXmy_382 b3yIgqvSHYPTZc5vJI1LZZrIojFoLMmBZ1uCkOf2yq8v1QSl6quq6_n4BYNV HYVitzfnEIwtHn1TqmFlFE4FEGWUwGD6icJne Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:47:24 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/324.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <925d17561003280714y30d5eb1fo19b9f97eb6902eaa@mail.gmail.com> <5BD9338A-1033-49E9-9A75-49046469DE95@gmail.com> <201003290855.46019.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17561003290812m4ed36820rf39978da50f7cbd@mail.gmail.com> <664037.78661.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <925d17561003291250w793cd0f7ld8bc442ade3e51db@mail.gmail.com> <585619.83565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <925d17561003291439g54bccb74va58f7d92d3c0a55b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:47:24 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <925d17561003291439g54bccb74va58f7d92d3c0a55b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.124 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e45f78600e827ab3 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry I misread you. Relieved that 'le' still functions more or less as it= ought, making terms referring to the things I have in mind that I am choos= ing to call ... and expecting you to understand. And 'lo' makes terms refe= rring to what? Not, as in some halcyon days, to things that really are ...= and I expect you to understand appropriate restrictions, since the objects= referred to are intensional (which makes 'lo broda cu broda' not a tautolo= gy but an infinitely looping paradox) but not any known or explained intens= ional objects. 'le' terms at least refer to things that are somewhat like = ...s. =20 I never did get that "specific" talk (as opposed to "definite" say) down, s= o I hope what I said above about 'le' is more or less correct. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, March 29, 2010 4:39:00 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 6:14 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > If it is really true that the language has degenerated to the point that = 'lo' and 'le' are merged as one, It hasn't, and I didn't say it had. I said I would replace all instances of "le" by "lo". You said that would be a degradation, while replacing all instances of "lo" by "le" might be an improvement. I just don't see how ending up with only "le" could be an improvement while ending up with only "lo" would be a degradation. It seems to me that the final result would be identical. > the replacing one by the other is indeed pointless. And, if it is true '= le nu' was regularly used improperly, the replacing it in most places by lo= might be some improvement. Yes, "nu", "ka", "du'u", indeed all NUs, were used practically exclusively with "le", just look at any oldish text (say more than five years). > Unfortunately, that move does mean that we would go from something we has= some idea about ('le nu') even if it did not strictly apply, to one we hav= e no clear idea about at all ('lo nu' or 'lo' anything, for that matter). Well, speaking for myself, I have a more clear idea about "lo" than about "= le": "lo" converts a selbri into a sumti. Nothing else. "le" also converts a selbri into a sumti, but it does something else that is hard to pinpoint exactly. It adds a notion of specificity or definiteness. Of course I have some intuitions about what that means, but trying to specify exactly what it means is hard, as anyone whose native language does not have definite articles finds out when learning one that does. > Btw, I hope the first protasis is not true, that in the proliferation of = picky details to fix earlier goofs, we have lost one of the big distinction= s that was one of the things done right from almost the beginning. "le" is still +specific, if that's what you mean. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.