From 3J06xSwoJBnIikecYSXhYiWcQYb.SecbeZRQdWeeWbUWhekfi.Sec@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 18:05:10 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3J06xSwoJBnIikecYSXhYiWcQYb.SecbeZRQdWeeWbUWhekfi.Sec@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwPt8-00018z-JF for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:05:09 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf17980213gyd.16 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:04:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=uNu2GNbaodhL1TJybcdUpwiB+8EZ95xjIsZylayg7HM=; b=WVCM/2AgjG65BEofPqymlLlxK2JgXbEMZrP/GhRBrnlfFNZ9zqB0iAVfcxw88C7z43 DHyRHqpUC70KyzwRhYX/XeOj89sFORdn8aGYNtxiqiyWb2g6tArHiaY/VoJ0RGK6U51M DoT7pTWLO/j/j1QP5WILSvCO+miZGAGA9s+DU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=4KAr2F7AcOpa1zk88E1kR2GXxX+/JFjlVbaofp3R1d/Hw+wzxfAq4tj5MoTJ6KMI+2 ef6ujo6Ib5L7yCdemojoJKKyZjaj6IeE/4cATOFLvTbEbNtm0y0rM2t1nEr6Fuxbhet2 r4CUhthEtqKKdfeWZfcDM46Wjyk3N7dXGbXok= Received: by 10.220.109.39 with SMTP id h39mr135928vcp.12.1269911079783; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:04:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.47.17 with SMTP id l17ls2572505vcf.5.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.99.148 with SMTP id u20mr1414879vcn.18.1269911078389; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.99.148 with SMTP id u20mr1414878vcn.18.1269911078342; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f190.google.com (mail-yw0-f190.google.com [209.85.211.190]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 29si11837678vws.2.2010.03.29.18.04.37; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.190 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.211.190; Received: by mail-yw0-f190.google.com with SMTP id 28so4909601ywh.8 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:04:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.133.20 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:04:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <27513e551003291721u162242d6v8602e207b6d50f94@mail.gmail.com> References: <702226df1003290711v11a9e957h537d99b637f40414@mail.gmail.com> <20100329143528.GA3085@sdf.lonestar.org> <702226df1003290953j22b0fc4dg3e9ffc1460b88882@mail.gmail.com> <20100329210845.GB24462@sdf.lonestar.org> <27513e551003291540l6e1b9ba8nde1ed8fac23e41e4@mail.gmail.com> <27513e551003291721u162242d6v8602e207b6d50f94@mail.gmail.com> From: Christopher Doty Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:04:16 -0700 Received: by 10.100.246.15 with SMTP id t15mr2915057anh.29.1269911076890; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: Lojban: You're Doing it Worng (was: Re: [lojban] la .alis.) To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.190 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ae71ea92dbbfd5b1 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/4c12c245707240ef Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68debcba269eb0482fa3650 --0016e68debcba269eb0482fa3650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Looks good! Some of the stuff now looks like it's in the wrong column, but I will poke at it a bit later tonight. I might try to separate the different functions (political/ethnic/linguistic) at some point... Also, since this was previously an effort that people put time into, does anyone know why the decision was made for these to be fu'ivla as opposed to cmene? Chris On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 17:21, Oren wrote: > Filled in the table headings and added a 'type' column to specify > political, ethnic and/or linguistic relevance/validity. Check it out > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla > > co'o mi'e korbi > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 07:22, Christopher Doty wrote: > >> Can someone fill me in on that page? I haven't seen it before, but it >> looks like a previous attempt to create fu'ivla for... >> "Nationality/Ethnicity/Language" ? That gets rid of the gismu, but seems to >> have the same problem... >> >> And what is the unlabeled column? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Chris >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:54, Christopher Doty wrote: >> >>> It seems like one first step would be to get all of the country names in >>> there (in whatever form--fu'ivla or cmene, but not gismu, in my opinion), >>> but get the cultural stuff out, so that the word is referring ONLY to the >>> country. One presumably wants to be able to refer to the Chinese economy, >>> still, but without the cultural stuff. >>> >>> One could then have gismu that were: >>> >>> x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3 >>> x1 reflects culture x2 in aspect x3 >>> x1 reflects nationality x2 in aspect x3 >>> >>> That greatly reduces the number of gismu needed, while removing all of >>> the current assumptions that cultural/language/nationality are tied >>> together. Plus, it makes it far easier to talk about >>> cultures/languages/nationalities that don't have established gismu. >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:40, Oren wrote: >>> >>>> I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gismu, since: >>>> >>>> 1) You'll never be able to have a 'complete set;' there will always be >>>> unequal representation >>>> 2) You'll never be able to find objective definitions for these >>>> cultures/languages/nations/whatever >>>> >>>> ...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi'uvla or even just >>>> standardized cmene, >>>> otherwise you're diluting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable >>>> elements. >>>> >>>> We just need to fill in the blanks: >>>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e68debcba269eb0482fa3650 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks good! =A0Some of the stuff now looks like it's in the wrong colum= n, but I will poke at it a bit later tonight.

I might tr= y to separate the different functions (political/ethnic/linguistic) at some= point...

Also, since this was previously an effort that people p= ut time into, does anyone know why the decision was made for these to be fu= 'ivla as opposed to cmene?

Chris

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 17:21, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:
Filled in the table headings and added a 'type' co= lumn to specify political, ethnic and/or linguistic relevance/validity. Che= ck it out


co'o mi'e korbi<= br>
O= n Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 07:22, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
Can someone fill me in on that page? =A0I haven't seen it before, but= it looks like a previous attempt to create fu'ivla for... "Nation= ality/Ethnicity/Language" ? =A0That gets rid of the gismu, but seems t= o have the same problem...

And what is the unlabeled column?

T= hanks,

Chris


On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:54, Christopher Doty <suom= ichris@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems like one first step would be to get= all of the country names in there (in whatever form--fu'ivla or cmene,= but not gismu, in my opinion), but get the cultural stuff out, so that the= word is referring ONLY to the country. =A0One presumably wants to be able = to refer to the Chinese economy, still, but without the cultural stuff.
One could then have gismu that were:

x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3
x1 reflects culture x2 in = aspect x3
x1 reflects nationality x2 in aspect x3

That greatly reduces the number of gismu needed, while removing = all of the current assumptions that cultural/language/nationality are tied = together. =A0Plus, it makes it far easier to talk about cultures/languages/= nationalities that don't have established gismu.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:40= , Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gi= smu, since:

1) You'll never be able to have a 'c= omplete set;' there will always be unequal representation
2) You'll never be able to find=A0objective definitions for these cultu= res/languages/nations/whatever

...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi= 9;uvla or even just standardized cmene,
otherwise you're=A0di= luting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable elements.
=A0<= /div>
We just need to fill in the blanks:=A0http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cu= ltural+fu'ivla


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