From 3ZVCxSwgJBrIYWl.gjWfYeSad.UgedgbTSfYggYdWYjgmhk.Uge@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Mar 29 18:14:43 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3ZVCxSwgJBrIYWl.gjWfYeSad.UgedgbTSfYggYdWYjgmhk.Uge@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwQ2P-0001xN-Uy for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:14:42 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf8710949ywh.28 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:14:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=APzUZwcPCHdgR7U4K9DjcNkCPGyAvga7tkRneq6yntw=; b=ePiVbiGZZL8LAGUIRULut2SLeolUV48/zpi5FggiiyxJuRTN57YI3Fexdax2xxcbT9 zcFefZN2i/i/dhHfJcbFvmGl+ceBvlOMBBDKS6Hg/BZ1vtf2feH+xMAR1fUMKCKonRWW tziB/YEEsP1ExOyQ2mEaDN9BcYIj9mJ0Ajg0I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=03eh6SSeazFdAgyjkWuy8jY4WdAy9ESdlGByNighumQDqoAbGjFDOsi8IqJekXfPAX 5528q23qKK27glR4j5Ldy9Lnk/VHRk0llZcQ+Vw+ZPo9b3GGQC0hywP1AGzHBJzKCApg z0CMybjk58B77SddYcnDlObBXnACtv4u/dMJc= Received: by 10.91.84.20 with SMTP id m20mr230247agl.21.1269911653947; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:14:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.122.100 with SMTP id k36ls602816ibr.0.p; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.182.135 with SMTP id cc7mr389284ibb.7.1269911652873; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.182.135 with SMTP id cc7mr389283ibb.7.1269911652823; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com (mail-pw0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si668643iwn.0.2010.03.29.18.14.11; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.44; Received: by mail-pw0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 10so7073638pwi.17 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:14:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:13:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <702226df1003290711v11a9e957h537d99b637f40414@mail.gmail.com> <20100329143528.GA3085@sdf.lonestar.org> <702226df1003290953j22b0fc4dg3e9ffc1460b88882@mail.gmail.com> <20100329210845.GB24462@sdf.lonestar.org> <27513e551003291540l6e1b9ba8nde1ed8fac23e41e4@mail.gmail.com> <27513e551003291721u162242d6v8602e207b6d50f94@mail.gmail.com> From: Oren Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:13:51 +0800 Received: by 10.142.4.1 with SMTP id 1mr202378wfd.50.1269911651207; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <27513e551003291813r45ea7439nf9d07b54660b2735@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: Lojban: You're Doing it Worng (was: Re: [lojban] la .alis.) To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ae71ea92dbbfd5b1 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/25585e46fb37bda6 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502b717ddc9360482fa587d --00504502b717ddc9360482fa587d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The reason given at the bottom of the page for the fi'uvla is for five-letter rafsi can be formed. I can see how this has some advantages for structured usage, and really no better application of this lojban feature than names used in international discourse. Perhaps its still ideal to add another column for a cmene version, or just make the 'lojban approximation' into a 'recommended cmene' column? On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 09:04, Christopher Doty wrote: > Looks good! Some of the stuff now looks like it's in the wrong column, but > I will poke at it a bit later tonight. > > I might try to separate the different functions > (political/ethnic/linguistic) at some point... > > Also, since this was previously an effort that people put time into, does > anyone know why the decision was made for these to be fu'ivla as opposed to > cmene? > > Chris > > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 17:21, Oren wrote: > >> Filled in the table headings and added a 'type' column to specify >> political, ethnic and/or linguistic relevance/validity. Check it out >> >> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla >> >> co'o mi'e korbi >> >> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 07:22, Christopher Doty wrote: >> >>> Can someone fill me in on that page? I haven't seen it before, but it >>> looks like a previous attempt to create fu'ivla for... >>> "Nationality/Ethnicity/Language" ? That gets rid of the gismu, but seems to >>> have the same problem... >>> >>> And what is the unlabeled column? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:54, Christopher Doty wrote: >>> >>>> It seems like one first step would be to get all of the country names in >>>> there (in whatever form--fu'ivla or cmene, but not gismu, in my opinion), >>>> but get the cultural stuff out, so that the word is referring ONLY to the >>>> country. One presumably wants to be able to refer to the Chinese economy, >>>> still, but without the cultural stuff. >>>> >>>> One could then have gismu that were: >>>> >>>> x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3 >>>> x1 reflects culture x2 in aspect x3 >>>> x1 reflects nationality x2 in aspect x3 >>>> >>>> That greatly reduces the number of gismu needed, while removing all of >>>> the current assumptions that cultural/language/nationality are tied >>>> together. Plus, it makes it far easier to talk about >>>> cultures/languages/nationalities that don't have established gismu. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:40, Oren wrote: >>>> >>>>> I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gismu, since: >>>>> >>>>> 1) You'll never be able to have a 'complete set;' there will always be >>>>> unequal representation >>>>> 2) You'll never be able to find objective definitions for these >>>>> cultures/languages/nations/whatever >>>>> >>>>> ...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi'uvla or even just >>>>> standardized cmene, >>>>> otherwise you're diluting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable >>>>> elements. >>>>> >>>>> We just need to fill in the blanks: >>>>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00504502b717ddc9360482fa587d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The reason given at the bottom of the page for the fi'= uvla is for five-letter rafsi can be formed. I can see how this has some ad= vantages for structured usage, and really no better application of this loj= ban feature than names used in international discourse. Perhaps its still i= deal to add another column for a cmene version, or just make the 'lojba= n approximation' into a 'recommended cmene' column?

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 09:04, Christopher D= oty <suomichri= s@gmail.com> wrote:
Looks good! =A0Some of the stuff now looks like it's in the wrong colum= n, but I will poke at it a bit later tonight.

I might tr= y to separate the different functions (political/ethnic/linguistic) at some= point...

Also, since this was previously an effort that people p= ut time into, does anyone know why the decision was made for these to be fu= 'ivla as opposed to cmene?

Chris


On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 17:21, Oren <get.oren@= gmail.com> wrote:
Filled in the table headings and added a 'type' co= lumn to specify political, ethnic and/or linguistic relevance/validity. Che= ck it out
co'o mi'e korbi

=
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 07:= 22, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
Can someone= fill me in on that page? =A0I haven't seen it before, but it looks lik= e a previous attempt to create fu'ivla for... "Nationality/Ethnici= ty/Language" ? =A0That gets rid of the gismu, but seems to have the sa= me problem...

And what is the unlabeled column?

T= hanks,

Chris


On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:54, Christopher Doty <suom= ichris@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems like one first step would be to get= all of the country names in there (in whatever form--fu'ivla or cmene,= but not gismu, in my opinion), but get the cultural stuff out, so that the= word is referring ONLY to the country. =A0One presumably wants to be able = to refer to the Chinese economy, still, but without the cultural stuff.
One could then have gismu that were:

x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3
x1 reflects culture x2 in = aspect x3
x1 reflects nationality x2 in aspect x3

That greatly reduces the number of gismu needed, while removing = all of the current assumptions that cultural/language/nationality are tied = together. =A0Plus, it makes it far easier to talk about cultures/languages/= nationalities that don't have established gismu.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:40= , Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gi= smu, since:

1) You'll never be able to have a 'c= omplete set;' there will always be unequal representation
2) You'll never be able to find=A0objective definitions for these cultu= res/languages/nations/whatever

...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi= 9;uvla or even just standardized cmene,
otherwise you're=A0di= luting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable elements.
=A0<= /div>
We just need to fill in the blanks:=A0http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cu= ltural+fu'ivla


=

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=

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