From 3AbuxSwgJBrkfds.nqdmflZhk.bnlkniaZmfnnfkdfqntor.bnl@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 01:49:33 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f144.google.com ([209.85.222.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3AbuxSwgJBrkfds.nqdmflZhk.bnlkniaZmfnnfkdfqntor.bnl@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwX8Z-0007Sq-Rl for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:49:33 -0700 Received: by pzk8 with SMTP id 8sf111153pzk.26 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:49:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:from:date :received:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=RGqsr7WAEQAoodkjcTpIpoe5mz9CrOrJiEkEOXMOyMg=; b=Pzzyy6GxUEaTL9MGcqHu+m/mpXLu2WIOeaj+VpFjrd4TFGGCk1Mih66n7O8hOtWz5q 0YWEOmSYaSUHAwe3y4U3RCOMt2GVf+02hqyIHnx2QZL19ryR1w+PfD466kkuVGdgpUWZ NJT7luaX0lWd1BYcZTJiO4hCiNNzeKCtTX85k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject :to:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=A4ueVAvvIPaW/iv/0QW2nD1sz+ntHPcXGq/e9r4Q0yIOg2AJsCiH1D+KZSP88W4rvz I0UeEXvcnvPx8nPYriCBqv07lLl+zH8yA1qcxebc1ZRRSopJTw5FLYsekrKip8fmdMhX VN1DYGmI10IXoL1vozWXqu2mjBda9XrTiaJ2g= Received: by 10.115.100.14 with SMTP id c14mr261060wam.24.1269938945477; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:49:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.115.98.17 with SMTP id a17ls2966911wam.3.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.10.18 with SMTP id 18mr1111782waj.16.1269938943372; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.10.18 with SMTP id 18mr1111781waj.16.1269938943326; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f177.google.com (mail-pz0-f177.google.com [209.85.222.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si1146264pzk.6.2010.03.30.01.49.02; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.222.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.222.177; Received: by mail-pz0-f177.google.com with SMTP id 7so410236pzk.30 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:49:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:48:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Oren Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:48:42 +0800 Received: by 10.143.27.1 with SMTP id e1mr292097wfj.343.1269938942104; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <27513e551003300148q3e78ef25lb01b2032f5b3b98d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Getting serious about "Cultural" fi'uvla (was: You're doing it wrong) To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.222.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/7096de6ee0848de3 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/6e41918225f537a3 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0050450294e387d621048300b3da --0050450294e387d621048300b3da Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 14:27, Christopher Doty wrote: > Hrm... I wonder about the best way to do this... > On the one hand, it seems like they should be cmene, since they are, essentially, names. .i go'i je'a .i ko'a cu cmene yes, indeed they are names. However fi'uvla grant the freedom to make universally regular five-letter rafsi (and then build better lujvo) AND to neutrally recognize all useful "cultures" while avoiding a trade-off with gismuspace. The sensible compromise is to make this list a reference for both cmene and fi'uvla. Also, this way we can talk about language and politics in lojban without having to write in awkWARD CAPital leTTErs. http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla ta'o ni'o What is "culture" anyhow? I want to define our specifications for this, so looked up the definition o= f culture (Mirriam-Webster, see below). In it they specify several origins of culture; the primary definition citing race, religion and 'social groups,' which may be bound by time or place. I think lojban should focus on precision first, so the scope should should be restricted to standardized entities: 1. Languages - autonymic, first priority to cover accepted top-level ISO codes, then dialect and variant codes, others only deserve cmene. 2. Political regions - autonymic in official language or most populous official language. First priority to cover UN members territories, then any self-declared independent regions which at one point had normalized relations with any UN-recognized state, so Tibet, Taiwan and = the Confederate States of America all take precedence over Pedestria, my own sovereign state that I just declared. Then once we get these down we automate a cmene-creator to read through geonames.org and cover all named territories and populated areas. And that's all. I argue that these two alone are the most useful and best-defined terms to care about. Here's my feelings on the other portions of this page: 1. Ethnicity? Hard. "Ethnicity" and "cultural groups" themselves are loosely defined social constructs, may have no easy autonymic solution (like Polynesian), and c= an be better expressed directly with {da kulnu de} where de is a chromosoma= l pattern or distinguishing feature for a particular race, or perhaps an activity for a term like 'nomadic,' 'chopsticks' or 'nerd' or whatever. 2. Religion? Tricky. As for religion and philosophy, these are much harder to standardize (dewey decimal system?) and while useful names, not as specific as the o= nes listed above. Naming can also be an issue for multi-lingual schools of thought. Perhaps these could do with just cmene. 3. Geography? Who's version? Do we stop at Australia or Greenland? To be thorough, I would think this should be left to some earth experts to decide just which land masses, tectonic plates, bodies of water, air masses and climactic systems would= be useful to name. On a tangent, how about constellations or a complete periodic table of elements? Also, I don't see any way to come up with 'autonymic' terms for such natural entities, maybe they are better off w= ith meaningful lujvo instead. mu'o mi'e korbi Definitions of Culture: a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group;also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization d : the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0050450294e387d621048300b3da Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 14:27, Christopher Doty <<= a href=3D"mailto:suomichris@gmail.com">suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:<= /div>
> Hrm... I wonder about the best way to do this...
> On = the one hand, it seems like they should be cmene, since they are, essential= ly, names.=A0

.i go'i je'a .i ko'a cu cmene
yes, indeed the= y are names.

However fi'uvla grant the freedom to make universal= ly regular five-letter rafsi (and then build better lujvo) AND to neutrally= recognize all useful "cultures" while avoiding a trade-off with = gismuspace. The sensible compromise is to make this list a reference for bo= th cmene and fi'uvla. Also, this way we can talk about language and pol= itics in lojban without having to write in awkWARD CAPital leTTErs.


ta'o ni'= ;o=A0What is "culture" anyhow?

I want to= define our specifications for this, so looked up the definition of culture= (Mirriam-Webster, see below). In it they specify several origins of cultur= e; the primary definition citing race, religion and 'social groups,'= ; which may be bound by time or place. I think lojban should focus on preci= sion first, so the scope should should be restricted to standardized entiti= es:
  1. Languages -
    autonymic,
    first priority to cover ac= cepted top-level ISO codes,
    then dialect and variant codes, others only= deserve cmene.

  2. Political regions -
    autonymic in offici= al language or most populous official language.
    First priority to cover UN members territories,
    then any self-declared = independent regions which at one point had normalized relations with any UN= -recognized state, so Tibet, Taiwan and the Confederate States of America a= ll take precedence over Pedestria, my own sovereign state that I just decla= red.
    Then once we get these down we automate a cmene-creator to read through geonames.org and cover all named territori= es and populated areas.
And that's all.=A0I argue that th= ese two alone are the most useful and best-defined terms to care about.=A0H= ere's my feelings on the other portions of this page:
  1. Ethnicity? Hard.
    "Ethnicity" and "cultural = groups" themselves are loosely defined social constructs, may have no = easy autonymic solution (like Polynesian), and can be better expressed dire= ctly with {da kulnu de} where de is a chromosomal pattern or distinguishing= feature for a particular race, or perhaps an activity for a term like '= ;nomadic,' 'chopsticks' or 'nerd' or whatever.

  2. Religion? Tricky.
    As for religion and philosophy, these ar= e much harder to standardize (dewey decimal system?) and while useful names= , not as specific as the ones listed above. Naming can also be an issue for= multi-lingual schools of thought. Perhaps these could do with just cmene.<= br>
  3. Geography? Who's version?
    Do we stop at Australia or G= reenland?=A0To be thorough, I would think this should be left to some earth= experts to decide just which land masses, tectonic plates, bodies of water= , air masses and climactic systems would be useful to name. On a tangent, h= ow about constellations or a complete periodic table of elements? Also, I d= on't see any way to come up with 'autonymic' terms for such nat= ural entities, maybe they are better off with meaningful lujvo instead.
mu'o mi'e korbi

Definitions of Cu= lture:
a=A0:=A0the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and be= havior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowled= ge to succeeding generations=A0
b=A0:=A0the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racia= l, religious, or social group;also=A0:=A0the characteristic features of eve= ryday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a plac= e or time=A0<popular culture>=A0<southern culture>=A0
c=A0:=A0the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that char= acterizes an institution or organization=A0<a corporate culture focused = on the bottom line>=A0
d=A0:=A0the set of values, conventions, or soc= ial practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal cha= racteristic=A0<studying the effect of computers on print culture>=A0&= lt;changing the culture of materialism will take time =97 Peggy O'Mara&= gt;

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