From 3Tr2xSw8JBgkvrlqjnu.n4n01xwpvjru.lxvuxskjwpxxpunp0x3y1.lxv@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 01:59:22 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3Tr2xSw8JBgkvrlqjnu.n4n01xwpvjru.lxvuxskjwpxxpunp0x3y1.lxv@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwXI4-0007sv-Mi for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:59:22 -0700 Received: by gwb1 with SMTP id 1sf9718275gwb.16 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:59:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:mime-version :subject:from:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uA9+ymGDkWPpBZ/125MKbYQfRSyZ92GOAJa7JML5Fz8=; b=RMFAkrCc6bgTHPbdlXrC0Ra8r36VpbI059JD+nggDeQtnDma1FZwATmwcXBK1bByt2 WJIDomsEyU8mRV3kFO7ri53jWKD6rDQp4EBluu17bN7iSBn5V5XoYsixQaMZSiTqYXM8 wcxhipEJjBto8iNfxJLsK7ZLGLTb7Ubmeb5aY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=o5LXTTB1Fa7mmMCda+1fITJAtKzFqWgOSTP/dVnhWlSiQ0+xeUwx1g2ju2l1icxEpM /IG8bRW5lDXXFMePwXPF4+//MqbqP8vMhF3E9Nr+vqnGtVZ6RDG6vVMgXh1Yhn4otY+4 GeTWFbMy5+uVzMlzgWVvRXyPPCN8kLotJ+WQI= Received: by 10.91.91.6 with SMTP id t6mr474149agl.44.1269939534953; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:58:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.5.195 with SMTP id 3ls5114922bkw.3.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.162.203 with SMTP id w11mr365197bkx.12.1269939533192; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.162.203 with SMTP id w11mr365196bkx.12.1269939533149; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f175.google.com (mail-wy0-f175.google.com [74.125.82.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v26si5148304bkt.3.2010.03.30.01.58.52; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.175; Received: by mail-wy0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 28so5200130wyb.34 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.90.135 with SMTP id e7mr1077316wef.34.1269939531739; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (murrisk2.westnet.ie [88.81.100.235]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g9sm16540168gvc.23.2010.03.30.01.58.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Michael Everson In-Reply-To: <96f789a61003291308s6fbdb29cw34c489d5d9bf5935@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:58:49 +0100 Message-Id: References: <44766EDC-06BC-4C51-BFEB-15C7E8893161@gmail.com> <702226df1003281009v16765b67t15164adbc68e98d@mail.gmail.com> <6B3DDDFE-901C-4F09-9D60-C0EEA821D33F@gmail.com> <96f789a61003291239h64f62921p2f74c287e22c32e4@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61003291308s6fbdb29cw34c489d5d9bf5935@mail.gmail.com> To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=michael.everson@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: michael.everson@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e977d4052896cb1e Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 29 Mar 2010, at 21:08, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Michael Everson >=20 >> Now, now. Conventions are devised by people. In the Latin script, certai= n conventions are used for most languages. Capitals at the beginning of sen= tences, full stops at the end, capitals for personal names. Sure, when Lojb= an was devised, other conventions were used. That does not mean that text i= n Lojban ceases to be Lojban if traditional Latin casing and punctuation co= nventions are used. After all, if Tengwar can be used, or Cyrillic, then wh= y should there be some sort of "ban" on using "Victorian typographic conven= tions" for a book written in the nineteenth century? It's just a convention= . You might not prefer it. You've stated that you've got preferences. >=20 > But as the Latin alphabet was adopted by each culture, they did make modi= fications to it, to suit their individual needs. None of them ditched casing and punctuation. > Or would you insist that a French word that is supposed to have an accent= grave use an accent ague or circumflex, simply becuase it wasn't isomorphi= c with a different language? Orthographic question, not typographic. > Would you remove the upside-down question marks and exclamations in Spani= sh? No. =A1In fact they're rather helpful! =BFDon't you agree? :-) > Would you change spellings because a j in Spanish isn't the same sound as= a j in French? Orthographic question. > Insist French drop =AB =BB in favor of =93=94 ? No. But I wouldn't favour ditching quotation marks entirely either. > Insiit German use only capitals for proper nouns, not all nouns, as they = currently do? A good many publishers in the early twentieth century, and in the DDR later= on, did print German thus. > When used in lojban, Latin alphabet has certain conventions. There is so= me flexibility, but the > limits of flexibility are strictly defined. Defined by whom? For what purpose? What actual *utility* is there is not be= ing able to identify structures at a glance? What *benefit* is there to "la= alis" over "la Alis"? Since the spec outlines the potential use of quotati= on marks and exclamation and question marks (which it DOES) why does an exp= loration of the application of traditional Latin typography attract so much= grumbling? Did you know that Loglan cases, by the way? Michael --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.