From 3CcCxSw8JBsYyuotmqx.q7q340zsymux.o0yx0vnmzs00sxqs30614.o0y@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 02:11:00 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3CcCxSw8JBsYyuotmqx.q7q340zsymux.o0yx0vnmzs00sxqs30614.o0y@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwXTL-0000dd-Ao for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:11:00 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf9061505ywh.28 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:10:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:mime-version :subject:from:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4+eWX0e4tXCSKqZLiopU4hOZ3v/ErKK9lSWic1v0xUo=; b=CYcf0ulKwDRkczBI7j+DoDu+mNCZ6FW584oTNTzzv99+g6fYLr5BKhHE3aF+YgVwQQ 2J64bUwib3Znvd6+uDwUkPKwvd/i+RKcJL6AdgBlJ+jwiz1aw4aG9DAu3TSM3YS1cHt4 +z2mwuSiTZpCeQs2nuMPWZ07BCaj2WFFGZ5Nw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=x/vyg5/982Nvrkg46/7QU21c86NuKF1qKc2NBpaFeTT7Jbe6ge1yGYI0XXksjnDsBK v60hSDc1qlPM+xMWuDtFOEp6EECSDePscCm16+PnzQiu3oppRa1/Vx54+az0kLryZA7T n/m4R39xv7wAfwCC1vx62Y/jQr3Pgv5nbSmZ8= Received: by 10.91.182.17 with SMTP id j17mr482347agp.1.1269940233699; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:10:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.26.140 with SMTP id e12ls2974211fac.1.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.61.138 with SMTP id t10mr455580fah.9.1269940232920; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.61.138 with SMTP id t10mr455579fah.9.1269940232894; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f221.google.com (mail-fx0-f221.google.com [209.85.220.221]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 12si402944fxm.4.2010.03.30.02.10.31; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.221 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.221; Received: by fxm21 with SMTP id 21so2881119fxm.22 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.124.8 with SMTP id w8mr929379fgc.8.1269940231698; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (murrisk2.westnet.ie [88.81.100.235]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l12sm423765fgb.22.2010.03.30.02.10.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Michael Everson In-Reply-To: <241890.82160.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:10:29 +0100 Message-Id: <37457605-902E-44CB-BE49-02A30FC20700@gmail.com> References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <702226df1003291006o242c37a8q6bc5ea53b6e6377d@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003291109p6508ea18q8fd9cd68f593a70c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003291319s63636a59t68668f5a79e79d4b@mail.gmail.com> <241890.82160.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.221 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=michael.everson@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: michael.everson@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/9f956f1340191ef4 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 29 Mar 2010, at 22:06, John E Clifford wrote: > Amazing as it may seem, Lojban, as a language, is a spoken object. Since= there are few people who would claim that they actually speak it (and even= fewer who could back up that claim in a face-to-face) , for most Lojbanist= Lojban exists as a written object. Thus, *how* Lojban is written takes on= many of the aspects that would occur in a normal language about how it was= spoken -- with favored dialects and accents and so on. And, as in most ca= ses where snobbery is an issue, discussion can get to be rather intense -- = and off topic and off courtesy. The only requirement for a writing system = for Lojban is that there be a written-spoken isomorphism; what that isomorp= hism is doesn't really matter (as witness the range of variations already = accepted). A Lojban writing system with proper names capitalized and the f= irst functional word of each sentence similarly, would still be an adequate= writing system, though with a slightly more complex isomorphism (after all= G and g stand for the same sound), and if we threw in a few punctuation ma= rks proper (commas for subordinate clauses, say, question marks, and quotes= of one sort or another), an isomorphism would still hold (though again a s= lightly more complex one). And some clarity might occasionally be gained. = And some elegance or whatever lost. =20 On 29 Mar 2010, at 22:06, John E Clifford wrote: > amazing as it may seem lojban as a language is a spoken object since ther= e are few people who would claim that they actually speak it and even fewer= who could back up that claim in a facetoface for most lojbanist lojban exi= sts as a written object thus how lojban is written takes on many of the asp= ects that would occur in a normal language about how it was spoken with fav= ored dialects and accents and so on and as in most cases where snobbery is = an issue discussion can get to be rather intense and off topic and off cour= tesy the only requirement for a writing system for lojban is that there be = a writtenspoken isomorphism; what that isomorphism is doesnt really matter = as witness the range of variations already accepted a lojban writing system= with proper names capitalized and the first functional word of each senten= ce similarly would still be an adequate writing system though with a slight= ly more complex isomorphism after all g and g stand for the same sound and = if we threw in a few punctuation marks proper commas for subordinate clause= s say question marks and quotes of one sort or another an isomorphism would= still hold though again a slightly more complex one and some clarity might= occasionally be gained and some elegance or whatever lost=20 Note that these texts are the same.\ Michael --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.