From 31smxSw8JBp0JF9E7BI.BSBOPLKDJ7FI.9LJILG87KDLLDIBDOLRMP.9LJ@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 02:52:46 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <31smxSw8JBp0JF9E7BI.BSBOPLKDJ7FI.9LJILG87KDLLDIBDOLRMP.9LJ@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwY7n-00054e-JH for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:52:46 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf9085257ywh.28 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:52:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:mime-version :subject:from:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=C970cLZsdXPAFQKeuVnui3CKr+cdXhGBSyenTs8P2hw=; b=419R/Ynx06E4oxr9L87wXHU+VipEVH4ekP+Ii0N8xT/3g6e0ZrFXUrPw2EFbcmNcct x4R+7AmF6zUurrSUuQ2Q5cHjTO6x3Mmu3Sw/Y03G1NaI1nyhSnvJXLcrgjDNqtXhVIIh REqemUbwNeLCxEceCOgnUcvClddr0dJP5yN/w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=T3JqD+UoMB9yUd25Vxu2uCvEaXXMaejHoV8gKHvQTWfT6YT6upBR3nwXjPULhzIGAK fQ0TF9eOqJ1oHWnPrdru62UZ+1Lh5nZaC0Y5UsD7u9Mgqca/xBWq+29RxwkgLZWSzQS5 sc+lWPFeFMc46b0ixXU7+ItEmnmg12utvS8mc= Received: by 10.91.91.7 with SMTP id t7mr232177agl.45.1269942742084; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:52:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.6.87 with SMTP id 23ls5138221bky.0.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.16.81 with SMTP id n17mr407055bka.11.1269942739714; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.16.81 with SMTP id n17mr407053bka.11.1269942739450; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.152]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 11si375776bwz.6.2010.03.30.02.52.18; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 72.14.220.152 as permitted sender) client-ip=72.14.220.152; Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id d23so3351947fga.5 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.87.62.28 with SMTP id p28mr7097984fgk.16.1269942737914; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (murrisk2.westnet.ie [88.81.100.235]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e3sm7706045fga.24.2010.03.30.02.52.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Michael Everson In-Reply-To: <20100330090253.GG3000@nvg.org> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:52:15 +0100 Message-Id: <59C6A282-0F28-4016-98C7-907FBD3C4379@gmail.com> References: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003291006o242c37a8q6bc5ea53b6e6377d@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003291109p6508ea18q8fd9cd68f593a70c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> <8EE07369-765A-49AB-AEC4-1DEC1A904C37@gmail.com> <20100330090253.GG3000@nvg.org> To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 72.14.220.152 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=michael.everson@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: michael.everson@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/3cd10e19615d2d84 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 30 Mar 2010, at 10:02, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 09:24:52AM +0100, Michael Everson wrote: >=20 >> What I can't do is anticipate the reaction of the community at large to = an edition of a book which treats Lojban like a real language rather than a= n oddball. >=20 > It is of course very good that you are trying to treat Lojban as a real l= anguage. But if treating it as a real language is your goal, why not respec= t the conventions of casing and punctuation that has been adhered to in all= serious writing for the past couple of decades? Your conventions *already* allow for variation. Exclamation marks and quest= ion marks are optional. The dot is optional. The option of choosing between= capitalization or the acute accent for stress is already there. =20 Did you read what John Cowan said? >> We have all sorts of orthographies for Lojban by now, from Cyrillic to T= engwar, and nobody says that they are "not Lojban". I think I understand w= hy some people don't like a traditional-Latin orthography: it's an instance= of "the uncanny valley", just enough like what you're used to to be upsett= ing. But the very fact that the two orthographies are isomorphic shows tha= t the essential Lojbanity of the text is preserved. I think his comment is quite reasonable. > I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by discussing this, = since you have evidently decided to ignore what we say anyway. Some people have said "Don't do it! Change nothing!" Some people have said "Do it, but I'm sure I won't like it." Some people have said "Please do it; this sounds interesting." I seem to have been listening to all three kinds of comments.=20 I've decided that I don't want to publish the book, in my series of Alice b= ooks, without capitalization or punctuation. I've decided that I want to ap= ply funky old-fashioned Victorian typographic standards. I think that it wi= ll make the text more legible to anyone who has never seen the language bef= ore. My market is Carrollian collectors as much as it is people who can rea= d the text. I am confident that comparison of the English text and the Lojb= an text will be much easier for the reader if "normal" typographic conventi= ons are used.=20 Michael --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.