From 3V9OxSwgJBigVHIRXEXSKQEMP.GSQPSNFERKSSKPIKVSYTW.GSQ@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 03:33:26 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3V9OxSwgJBigVHIRXEXSKQEMP.GSQPSNFERKSSKPIKVSYTW.GSQ@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwYl7-0007i2-JX for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:33:26 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf9116562ywh.28 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:33:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=TcCk00ewdN9c6etRcmZG8XEsu0G+HBmND3ZPoNwFG+0=; b=xcqPyA5Caxj9ocDSPlMfFzW7slVhAvRM5LZNHXxM7ILxUOoM3w9qCF/4TrmsBEwBJ5 lL0mThrl1MdY5co7lpYFpCHm62gxCIom/nvv0XHvcj6GJD91XxD8L8Mj7UmeaOXUzG9D k/4zT31iN4AJLvEqahgqTG7zCmzD/SHu/kg4w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=U0VfTLrQLNkAgpYpxF1OHrAa0LmqWYcAYXWBmEHDmOJRN0FUmb7tanT4uHFiwPYrGf CDgc8baWHWrPDPwtjBdNLMURIbgKNUwxkj49twzJtsxFzI7ulZd28W7ifwmyh+u0+Vjo mf9GJWmXKHwJVn/rvZ3m7bBwgmckmlUCVSzow= Received: by 10.91.82.11 with SMTP id j11mr473665agl.41.1269945175749; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:32:55 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.213.2.70 with SMTP id 6ls1367433ebi.2.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.37.193 with SMTP id y1mr621918ebd.19.1269945173659; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.37.193 with SMTP id y1mr621917ebd.19.1269945173587; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f214.google.com (mail-ew0-f214.google.com [209.85.219.214]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si296670ewy.0.2010.03.30.03.32.52; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.214 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.219.214; Received: by ewy6 with SMTP id 6so157370ewy.24 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:32:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.21.19 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:32:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <59C6A282-0F28-4016-98C7-907FBD3C4379@gmail.com> References: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003291109p6508ea18q8fd9cd68f593a70c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> <8EE07369-765A-49AB-AEC4-1DEC1A904C37@gmail.com> <20100330090253.GG3000@nvg.org> <59C6A282-0F28-4016-98C7-907FBD3C4379@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:32:52 +0200 Received: by 10.216.89.81 with SMTP id b59mr2386415wef.97.1269945172407; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <23298cb41003300332u6bde63fdk9f8b819fff7bf2ce@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Remo Dentato To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.214 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/71fb34938fb9768a Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d77c7ce2b74b048302263d --0016e6d77c7ce2b74b048302263d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Michael, I think that an example of a page with lojban text composed according your proposal would be very beneficial for the discussion. As I said previously, I think we *do* need a better way to write lojban to ease the first approach to the language. The best would be to have something optional that is useful for human readers and can easily be stripped before parsing it or to produce a minimal equivalent text. I would really like to see it and xorxes already confirmed that the text is in the Public Domain if you could start doing it and would allow the Lojban community to see the work in progress (e.g. publishing the draft versions while working), you'll find many people start liking the idea. remod On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Michael Everson wrote: > > On 30 Mar 2010, at 10:02, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 09:24:52AM +0100, Michael Everson wrote: > > > >> What I can't do is anticipate the reaction of the community at large to > an edition of a book which treats Lojban like a real language rather than an > oddball. > > > > It is of course very good that you are trying to treat Lojban as a real > language. But if treating it as a real language is your goal, why not > respect the conventions of casing and punctuation that has been adhered to > in all serious writing for the past couple of decades? > > Your conventions *already* allow for variation. Exclamation marks and > question marks are optional. The dot is optional. The option of choosing > between capitalization or the acute accent for stress is already there. > > Did you read what John Cowan said? > > >> We have all sorts of orthographies for Lojban by now, from Cyrillic to > Tengwar, and nobody says that they are "not Lojban". I think I understand > why some people don't like a traditional-Latin orthography: it's an instance > of "the uncanny valley", just enough like what you're used to to be > upsetting. But the very fact that the two orthographies are isomorphic > shows that the essential Lojbanity of the text is preserved. > > I think his comment is quite reasonable. > > > I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by discussing this, > since you have evidently decided to ignore what we say anyway. > > > Some people have said "Don't do it! Change nothing!" > Some people have said "Do it, but I'm sure I won't like it." > Some people have said "Please do it; this sounds interesting." > > I seem to have been listening to all three kinds of comments. > > I've decided that I don't want to publish the book, in my series of Alice > books, without capitalization or punctuation. I've decided that I want to > apply funky old-fashioned Victorian typographic standards. I think that it > will make the text more legible to anyone who has never seen the language > before. My market is Carrollian collectors as much as it is people who can > read the text. I am confident that comparison of the English text and the > Lojban text will be much easier for the reader if "normal" typographic > conventions are used. > > Michael > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6d77c7ce2b74b048302263d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael,
=A0 I think that an example of a page with lojban text composed according= =20 your proposal would be very beneficial for the discussion.

=A0 As I said previously, I think we *do* need a better way to write=20 lojban to ease the first approach to the language.

=A0The best woul= d be to have something optional that is useful for=20 human readers and can easily be stripped before parsing it or to produce a = minimal equivalent text.

=A0 I would really like to see it and xorxe= s already confirmed that the text is in the Public Domain if you could star= t doing it and would allow the Lojban community to see the work in progress= (e.g. publishing the draft versions while working), you'll find many p= eople start liking the idea.

=A0 remod

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 11:= 52 AM, Michael Everson <michael.everson@gmail.com> wrote:

On 30 Mar 2010, at 10:02, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 09:24:52AM +0100, Michael Everson wrote:
>
>> What I can't do is anticipate the reaction of the community at= large to an edition of a book which treats Lojban like a real language rat= her than an oddball.
>
> It is of course very good that you are trying to treat Lojban as a rea= l language. But if treating it as a real language is your goal, why not res= pect the conventions of casing and punctuation that has been adhered to in = all serious writing for the past couple of decades?

Your conventions *already* allow for variation. Exclamation marks and= question marks are optional. The dot is optional. The option of choosing b= etween capitalization or the acute accent for stress is already there.

Did you read what John Cowan said?

>> We have all sorts of orthographies for Lojban by now, from Cyrilli= c to Tengwar, and nobody says that they are "not Lojban". =A0I th= ink I understand why some people don't like a traditional-Latin orthogr= aphy: it's an instance of "the uncanny valley", just enough l= ike what you're used to to be upsetting. =A0But the very fact that the = two orthographies are isomorphic shows that the essential Lojbanity of the = text is preserved.

I think his comment is quite reasonable.

> I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by discussing= this, since you have evidently decided to ignore what we say anyway.


Some people have said "Don't do it! Change nothing!" Some people have said "Do it, but I'm sure I won't like it.&qu= ot;
Some people have said "Please do it; this sounds interesting."
I seem to have been listening to all three kinds of comments.

I've decided that I don't want to publish the book, in my series of= Alice books, without capitalization or punctuation. I've decided that = I want to apply funky old-fashioned Victorian typographic standards. I thin= k that it will make the text more legible to anyone who has never seen the = language before. My market is Carrollian collectors as much as it is people= who can read the text. I am confident that comparison of the English text = and the Lojban text will be much easier for the reader if "normal"= ; typographic conventions are used.

Michael

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