From 3LwOySwoJBjAXQae.YaXMeSYMUX.OaYXaVNMZSaaSXQSdagbe.OaY@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 06:57:31 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3LwOySwoJBjAXQae.YaXMeSYMUX.OaYXaVNMZSaaSXQSdagbe.OaY@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nwbwb-0006GI-Ly for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:57:31 -0700 Received: by vws3 with SMTP id 3sf4461386vws.16 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:57:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=jamREXGYVOJjq4cQh8cG36umchEYMr/b+ixN+E5N4Ng=; b=6fqebVUQLY4B4G/FbwDThrNUnRNqyGc0hoAvzK21xW9X5sm6nfg7LZbj0Ne9PM0vsN EqVb8CgbbSEQ6/vXiLElDmL6Yo9Tv+xLpxMvyTq72iNk/9Rhw3LOhNBCE6A/Dto04iN+ 36tVdFsiA24f0OilpzAJYUlitLdGsL0gNopkw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version :content-type:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; b=CUhy2yDIHtFi/Wi5khCtAdwoHB2p6A+ZYzcu4PWuAvEYyYV9IVkJfw44PWAMr0m/MC 5WhbMkRuDYFeyMuJAf874t3ITNdWA7c1V9Qab5B9aZzcbxXCg4F6mn7b9IpxBDvXXUFx EhEHW8btKUkl4U7wo6lI5MKyBKL5kIP7g49ck= Received: by 10.220.128.82 with SMTP id j18mr635198vcs.58.1269957423979; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:57:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.174.133 with SMTP id t5ls2740916vcz.2.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.161.81 with SMTP id q17mr1614841vcx.21.1269957422765; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.161.81 with SMTP id q17mr1614840vcx.21.1269957422742; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.150]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 34si13474708vws.3.2010.03.30.06.57.01; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.150 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.92.150; Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 9so1898162qwj.40 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.65.152 with SMTP id j24mr2240720qai.52.1269957420479; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([190.97.37.224]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 21sm1217542ywh.47.2010.03.30.06.56.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BB20330.6030403@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:57:04 -0300 From: Leo Molas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; es-AR; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. References: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003291006o242c37a8q6bc5ea53b6e6377d@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003291109p6508ea18q8fd9cd68f593a70c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> <8EE07369-765A-49AB-AEC4-1DEC1A904C37@gmail.com> <20100330090253.GG3000@nvg.org> <59C6A282-0F28-4016-98C7-907FBD3C4379@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <59C6A282-0F28-4016-98C7-907FBD3C4379@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig11E4F3E5A3D9572FA380AE84" X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.150 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=leos.molas@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: leos.molas@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/9c0131d194a4d1ff Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig11E4F3E5A3D9572FA380AE84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 09:24:52AM +0100, Michael Everson wrote: >>=20 >>> What I can't do is anticipate the reaction of the community at >>> large to an edition of a book which treats Lojban like a real >>> language rather than an oddball. >>=20 We are not treating Lojban as an oddball; we're treating it as a language with is own set of rules, like any other language, that's going to be butchered. There are some freedom and openness, because it's a growing language. The freedom we have is the optional letters (don't forget "." and "," are letters), putting "h" instead of "'", etc. It's established what we can do without going outside the boundaries. The openness is for discussing what should be part of the language, what's wrong, what should be changed from what's already official, etc. Of course, that last one is what need more time. If you go beyond the boundaries, that's when we say it won't be lojban what you're going to publish. >> It is of course very good that you are trying to treat Lojban as a >> real language. But if treating it as a real language is your goal, >> why not respect the conventions of casing and punctuation that has >> been adhered to in all serious writing for the past couple of >> decades? >=20 > Your conventions *already* allow for variation. Exclamation marks and > question marks are optional. The dot is optional. The option of > choosing between capitalization or the acute accent for stress is > already there.=20 Starting a bridi and proper names with Caps isn't optional. >>> We have all sorts of orthographies for Lojban by now, from >>> Cyrillic to Tengwar, and nobody says that they are "not Lojban". >>> I think I understand why some people don't like a >>> traditional-Latin orthography: it's an instance of "the uncanny >>> valley", just enough like what you're used to to be upsetting. >>> But the very fact that the two orthographies are isomorphic shows >>> that the essential Lojbanity of the text is preserved. >=20 What's different about this, it's that you're going to use the "normal" and official alphabet (that's a set of Latin alphabet; it's not that lojban uses Latin typography), and use it the way you want (different from the official and common one). If I use Tengwar or srilermorna, I won't confuse any newbie, because it's clear it's not the common typography. If you would have used that very same conventions we are discussing, in another alphabet, no one would have had any problems (well, yes, to read it, but no one would've been upset). That's why I think it's really *really* important that you clarify the book isn't written with the normal conventions (like "experimental"). >> I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by discussing >> this, since you have evidently decided to ignore what we say >> anyway. >=20 >=20 > Some people have said "Don't do it! Change nothing!" Some people have > said "Do it, but I'm sure I won't like it." Some people have said > "Please do it; this sounds interesting." >=20 > I seem to have been listening to all three kinds of comments. You didn't answer the question, as you didn't answered: >> For example, I could write a book in English, but I change all >> >> characters 'a' with 'u', and all 'u' with '#' (saying it's because >> >> it's more beautiful or readable). > > > > This is not analogous to what I am interested in doing. > > >> >> It would be a pain in the ass for all the English speakers, and, >> >> assuming it's actually better, is not going to really help anyone, >> >> since new speakers will be confused. > > > > The analogue would be to publish a book in English with all its > > punctuation removed and with all capital letters converted to small > > letters. > > > Nice analogy. As a English speaker, would you like a book like that > (given the publisher claims it's more beautiful or sylish...)? > I've decided that I don't want to publish the book, in my series of > Alice books, without capitalization or punctuation. I've decided that > I want to apply funky old-fashioned Victorian typographic standards. > I think that it will make the text more legible to anyone who has > never seen the language before. My market is Carrollian collectors as > much as it is people who can read the text. I am confident that > comparison of the English text and the Lojban text will be much > easier for the reader if "normal" typographic conventions are used. >=20 It's great that you are confident with this. If there would have been a discussion of this internally, before it went to the open public, it would have been really better. But, again, we can't stop you from doing that, so we'll see if it's better this way. mu'o mi'e .leos. --=20 My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com --------------enig11E4F3E5A3D9572FA380AE84 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJLsgM1AAoJEGPqAjdF26uE158H+wY7rxaOeg2tDdkcih49zbL2 RZgxaE78pyfesX+qCjyGiUQ14YFXdDIYptkUddcc2WqHPPF85jLWCcqeGdYMuCVq h7C+o9JEwpn4VytElof+JCudSOkb5W267se4JKReX3wJ5+emsY2pBIdf5oqeKgPY 6Ui4MVnJRlNY1zXbE7DQVH+ZJdzVkMJIlW4HiDaCnt3ptq5v3dvrpfhXmGjeGhjR WxqTD9wPS+eMaczViP6jr/NHiNpGKSBbxRgZpK/wNScPIkzgCm+Y2c7yhx6BcifK DMSYM5fckZEThIDJO8aTDMw9IZ4luuaWLkHCbLd3QF3aSZ9N9gIFiGBU0ioBkyc= =bnUj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig11E4F3E5A3D9572FA380AE84--