From 3sAiySwcJBrYauakjqociWeh.YkihkfXWjckkchacnkqlo.Yki@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 07:21:00 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3sAiySwcJBrYauakjqociWeh.YkihkfXWjckkchacnkqlo.Yki@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwcJJ-00084c-HN for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:21:00 -0700 Received: by gwb1 with SMTP id 1sf10028832gwb.16 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:20:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=lZJhvWsTOatbsPmkWh7gKRL0dnDU3B+tbG825jyC3cU=; b=ZWPAvzqvLN2YrfYvybBc3kAuWX1BFbHqWh+JhtbN4ovQsBs5/Ho8TtqvEpGMdBIDEi wcnQq4TTHJqtXGmWyhYnDDTW7Tjj60/gr2w3smkiQaAjw0wKzlfVcRVsP4yo+C20Rbc5 jUbJMyK+6qfSws8NdRWq2luKouho0X6XW0Tzw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=h71A5eDwpGf9fZ/tSnJzd1e5ZzDfCJ6+2LeduNkmdcUpywkgIsCASTVOhXK92b0c9P 2Tm3euVxbYocohzjBcVMorAJb8qwoHcryyOYsvryIhxBB6A6KaIN8GYaqQJiv5pyWQxH poYOnSY6BkVcsezyAu1vUL3FVpg5Fw50oiYX4= Received: by 10.91.181.11 with SMTP id i11mr510943agp.30.1269958832123; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:20:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.213.59.76 with SMTP id k12ls71593ebh.3.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.54.1 with SMTP id o1mr639712ebg.21.1269958830474; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.54.1 with SMTP id o1mr639711ebg.21.1269958830420; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f217.google.com (mail-ew0-f217.google.com [209.85.219.217]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si316055ewy.4.2010.03.30.07.20.29; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.217 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.219.217; Received: by ewy9 with SMTP id 9so3703388ewy.29 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:20:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.2.209 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:20:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <702226df1003290711v11a9e957h537d99b637f40414@mail.gmail.com> <20100329143528.GA3085@sdf.lonestar.org> <702226df1003290953j22b0fc4dg3e9ffc1460b88882@mail.gmail.com> <20100329210845.GB24462@sdf.lonestar.org> <27513e551003291540l6e1b9ba8nde1ed8fac23e41e4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:20:29 -0600 Received: by 10.216.166.80 with SMTP id f58mr145686wel.187.1269958829182; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <702226df1003300720s41d023f4wcd238c9c82f7112c@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: Lojban: You're Doing it Worng (was: Re: [lojban] la .alis.) From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.217 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ae71ea92dbbfd5b1 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/b84e5b8c797d405e Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364273dde48f91048305544f --0016364273dde48f91048305544f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Christopher Doty wrote: > It seems like one first step would be to get all of the country names in > there (in whatever form--fu'ivla or cmene, but not gismu, in my opinion), > but get the cultural stuff out, so that the word is referring ONLY to the > country. One presumably wants to be able to refer to the Chinese economy, > still, but without the cultural stuff. > > One could then have gismu that were: > > x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3 > x1 reflects culture x2 in aspect x3 > x1 reflects nationality x2 in aspect x3 > > That greatly reduces the number of gismu needed, while removing all of the > current assumptions that cultural/language/nationality are tied together. > Plus, it makes it far easier to talk about cultures/languages/nationalities > that don't have established gismu. > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:40, Oren wrote: > >> I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gismu, since: >> >> 1) You'll never be able to have a 'complete set;' there will always be >> unequal representation >> 2) You'll never be able to find objective definitions for these >> cultures/languages/nations/whatever >> >> ...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi'uvla or even just >> standardized cmene, >> otherwise you're diluting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable >> elements. >> >> We just need to fill in the blanks: >> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla >> >> > > I think that this is a very good idea. It makes more sense to have gismu for the various "reflects" bits of the cultural gismu than to have the cultural gismu. As for whether to use names or fu'ivla, I personally don't care which way to go- that's more a matter of choice, as fu'ivla and names are not ex cathedra. -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016364273dde48f91048305544f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Christo= pher Doty <suo= michris@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems like one first step would be to get all of the country names in th= ere (in whatever form--fu'ivla or cmene, but not gismu, in my opinion),= but get the cultural stuff out, so that the word is referring ONLY to the = country. =A0One presumably wants to be able to refer to the Chinese economy= , still, but without the cultural stuff.

One could then have gismu that were:

x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3
x1 reflects culture x2 in = aspect x3
x1 reflects nationality x2 in aspect x3

That greatly reduces the number of gismu needed, while removing = all of the current assumptions that cultural/language/nationality are tied = together. =A0Plus, it makes it far easier to talk about cultures/languages/= nationalities that don't have established gismu.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 15:40= , Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
I also agree that it makes more sense to ditch cultural gi= smu, since:

1) You'll never be able to have a 'c= omplete set;' there will always be unequal representation
2) You'll never be able to find=A0objective definitions for these cultu= res/languages/nations/whatever

...it just seems more sensible to me to make them fi= 9;uvla or even just standardized cmene,
otherwise you're=A0di= luting gismu space with unclear and unmaintainable elements.
=A0<= /div>
We just need to fill in the blanks:=A0http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cu= ltural+fu'ivla


=
I think that this is a very good idea. It makes more sense to ha= ve gismu for the various "reflects" bits of the cultural gismu th= an to have the cultural gismu. As for whether to use names or fu'ivla, = I personally don't care which way to go- that's more a matter of ch= oice, as fu'ivla and names are not ex cathedra.

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=

--
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