From 3JAqySwMHBiwIZRVdO.WZOTWRJIVOWWOTMOZWcXa.KWU@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 07:27:21 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f141.google.com ([209.85.210.141]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3JAqySwMHBiwIZRVdO.WZOTWRJIVOWWOTMOZWcXa.KWU@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwcPN-00006G-6M for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:27:20 -0700 Received: by yxe5 with SMTP id 5sf1675589yxe.2 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:26:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-nvg-mailscanner-information:x-nvg-mailscanner:x-mailscanner-from :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AzS4MQkG28tgZ3Uoon3sYN90x5ZtLqfVZ9VdB0jcZoE=; b=dkCvbEAZoqOB1K7FtzgYO8qirIaLp2LSeuA9oq08NL6IXGzMAxL3MiiTKRuJe8Ci3+ yMelukfhIAUuQs4dAS3hWqX/QDn/aQnil0NMHpI61urGvaxFxUpEKL6JtbYutNhy1eZG ZLMydH31Uj/BOwyj2kjktQB0p+FBg0TDd1ZqQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-nvg-mailscanner-information :x-nvg-mailscanner:x-mailscanner-from :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; b=iNgFkUIItFGgUvouKS/E27FdCFLwz3YHcT0El1kL4jTSTzftTqr+kMl28VEcehXUhB f9fCqYzwpuDwLxxYFwWoFYVBZsSC5EufAnSvGr93uUufhFCDA2560OCuwgGyYidJDsq/ 9SLTZgvtcQ7oINXFCOdKp4is7ilwffC9R2pPI= Received: by 10.91.93.10 with SMTP id v10mr515457agl.18.1269959204252; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:26:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.213.41.209 with SMTP id p17ls1289026ebe.1.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.38.212 with SMTP id c20mr560264ebe.17.1269959201717; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.38.212 with SMTP id c20mr560263ebe.17.1269959201671; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no (sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no [129.241.210.67]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 12si301668ewy.10.2010.03.30.07.26.41; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of arj@nvg.ntnu.no designates 129.241.210.67 as permitted sender) client-ip=129.241.210.67; Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no (unknown [IPv6:2001:700:300:2000:2a0:c9ff:feab:76e2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381CC94783 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:26:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no (8.13.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o2UEQUKL025707 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:26:30 +0200 Received: (from arj@localhost) by hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no (8.13.8/8.13.1/Submit) id o2UEQSn5025704 for lojban@googlegroups.com; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:26:28 +0200 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:26:28 +0200 From: Arnt Richard Johansen To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. Message-ID: <20100330142628.GH3000@nvg.org> References: <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> <8EE07369-765A-49AB-AEC4-1DEC1A904C37@gmail.com> <20100330090253.GG3000@nvg.org> <59C6A282-0F28-4016-98C7-907FBD3C4379@gmail.com> <23298cb41003300332u6bde63fdk9f8b819fff7bf2ce@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NVG-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-NVG-MailScanner: Not scanned: please contact your Internet E-Mail Service Provider for details X-MailScanner-From: arj@nvg.ntnu.no X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of arj@nvg.ntnu.no designates 129.241.210.67 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=arj@nvg.ntnu.no X-Original-Sender: arj@nvg.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/1ff4d529c6e72ff1 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 02:35:30PM +0100, Michael Everson wrote: > On 30 Mar 2010, at 11:32, Remo Dentato wrote: >=20 > > I think that an example of a page with lojban text composed according y= our proposal would be very beneficial for the discussion. >=20 > OK. I mocked this up quite quickly. [...] >=20 > Then, have a look at the Lojban: >=20 > http://www.evertype.com/books/alice-jbo-p.1.png Thank you very much! My impressions (if such comments makes a difference to you at this point): Re. the left-hand page: Reads like Lojban txt spk. It looks immediately familiar, but the lack of p= eriods before .i makes it look a bit like run-on sentences. Acceptable, but= hardly an example of Fine Typography. Re. the right-hand page: First impression: the =93I=94 at the beginning of sentences stick out like = a sore thumb! It reminds me of what happens when I type up a Norwegian text= in MS Word, and the silly auto-correct =93feature=94 turns the preposition= =93i=94 into upper-case. The other sentence-initial capitals, while unfami= liar at first sight, gives off a charming Old Loglan vibe after a while. Bu= t the other initials give me pause. Why on Earth is =93Blabi=94 and =93Ract= u=94 capitalised? Is it because he is a person, and all references to perso= ns are capitalised in this story? If so, why isn't the anaphora =93abu=94 c= apitalised? Without having the original text in front of me, there is no wa= y to be sure. Setting words in italics when they are preceded by the emphasis marker =93b= a'e=94 is fine, but when they appear on their own it looks illiterate. (I p= resume you are merely copying the italics from some English master, and the= emphasis somehow got lost in the English-to-Lojban translation.) The parentheses and quotation marks, on the other hand, eases rather than h= inders reading. Comments that apply to both versions: The apostrophes in the chapter heading look floating and disconnected becau= se of the large distance between the cap height and the x-height. I disagree with Jorge's insistence on straight apostrophes instead of curly= apostrophes. Straight apostrophes are an artifact of the conflation of apo= strophes/foot signs in typewriters, and does not need to used when alternat= ives are available. --=20 Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ Advisory: There is an Extremely Small but Nonzero Chance That, Through a Process Known as 'Tunneling,' This Product May Spontaneously Disappear from Its Present Location and Reappear at Any Random Place in the Universe, Including Your Neighbors Domicile. The Manufacturer Will Not Be Responsible for Any Damages or Inconvenience That May Result. --Susan Hewitt and Edward Subitzky --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.