From 32wyySwcJBuULfLVUbZNTHPS.JVTSVQIHUNVVNSLNYVbWZ.JVT@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 07:38:49 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <32wyySwcJBuULfLVUbZNTHPS.JVTSVQIHUNVVNSLNYVbWZ.JVT@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwcaX-0007rl-43 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:38:48 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf18682139gyd.16 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:38:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=QAkB5yxliFSIOU+1pmKMKSlGWA4TyexyPknT23hOE9s=; b=ZvnAIMACknA8++3MLo4TNWHDThFVd/NPmgXJYJJTi9pX//gKGRspObxw3r35+Y3fDV tWBOQ3cb7WkfjaUTBsX+k2/SXQv4QJtuIWt2DccXFbzFoRTMhPnaGfxHuPj+hBdjU0aN RGYEM2tdxMm9rc2iOo0FA/ttbU3ZzD/yJrV5Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=phvEa99zGKg4M+FEwOIa0IXTGQPrh4GilHRr6Ldsv4trpwIuWV0afgWMsbF88OF/mi 8FQSz1AGU1p55KP8ZcO0okV85HSrOOYGo37/pw6SPfp4w3QfOWcI9dEgOvOweh/kXLa2 E34qNCdgakWWDVtff7EXMAWs6B6tzdIQp4+JM= Received: by 10.91.133.13 with SMTP id k13mr504577agn.57.1269959899743; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:38:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls3053965bkd.1.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.22.69 with SMTP id m5mr96111bkb.19.1269959898435; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.22.69 with SMTP id m5mr96110bkb.19.1269959898379; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f171.google.com (mail-wy0-f171.google.com [74.125.82.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a10si6518414bkc.5.2010.03.30.07.38.17; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.171; Received: by mail-wy0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 32so5298822wyb.16 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:38:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.2.209 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:38:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <702226df1003291006o242c37a8q6bc5ea53b6e6377d@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003291109p6508ea18q8fd9cd68f593a70c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003291317k3fe81acbw61ac85133c4537f3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:38:15 -0600 Received: by 10.216.87.13 with SMTP id x13mr275787wee.12.1269959895510; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <702226df1003300738t5db1c523v6443e8c441f2afcb@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/4be81c8460a879ef Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d99f29736fe60483059480 --0016e6d99f29736fe60483059480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 2:51 AM, Michael Everson wrote: > On 29 Mar 2010, at 21:17, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > >>> I don't mean that sarcastically; I missed the start of the > conversation--what is gained by asserting that there should be no change? > >> > >> Stability, and impenetrability. > > > > I agree with the stability bit, but I don't agree that Lojban as written > in the standard convention is impenetrable. > > I think that the ordinary criteria of legibility would favour my position. > > > A bit difficult at first, > > It's forbidding and cold and unfriendly. > > > and more so with Jorge's consistent lack of denpabu, but not > impenetrable. > > Not only does one have to learn a language whose rules of morphology an > syntax are *very* different from any natural language (and that's extremely > cool) but one has to do it without being able to tell at a glance whether a > ten-line paragraph is a lot of short sentences or one massive complex > sentence with three or four levels of nested quotation or what. > > Maybe that's attractive to people with a lot of maths or with ADD or some > other kind of genius. As a trained linguist, expert in the world's writing > systems, type designer, and typesetter, I can say that it is extremely > off-putting. The eye has nowhere to focus. > > > (I would like to state that in my own experience, the difficulties I had > when first reading Lojban have since been reversed- that is, what once > difficult to read due to lack of that which I am used to seeing in English > text is now difficult if those elements *are* there- with the exception of > white space, and not counting my difficulty in reading {lonu lojbo bacru cu > na ponse lo denpabu} ("Lojban without the {.}").) > > Except that you say that you don't ever see such elements in Lojban text -- > so how can you be sure? > Becuase examples of such text have been made, including in this discussion thread. And I said I don't see them *used*. That is, people who frequently write in Lojban don't use them, which is not the same. The CLL has an example of such possible usage, which you pointed out yourself. > > Michael > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6d99f29736fe60483059480 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 2:51 AM, Michael Everson= <michael= .everson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 29 Mar 2010, at 21:17, Jonathan Jones wrote:

>>> I don't mean that sarcastically; I missed the start of the= conversation--what is gained by asserting that there should be no change?<= br> >>
>> Stability, and impenetrability.
>
> I agree with the stability bit, but I don't agree that Lojban as w= ritten in the standard convention is impenetrable.

I think that the ordinary criteria of legibility would favour my position.<= br>
> A bit difficult at first,

It's forbidding and cold and unfriendly.

> and more so with Jorge's consistent lack of denpabu, but not impen= etrable.

Not only does one have to learn a language whose rules of morphology an syn= tax are *very* different from any natural language (and that's extremel= y cool) but one has to do it without being able to tell at a glance whether= a ten-line paragraph is a lot of short sentences or one massive complex se= ntence with three or four levels of nested quotation or what.

Maybe that's attractive to people with a lot of maths or with ADD or so= me other kind of genius. As a trained linguist, expert in the world's w= riting systems, type designer, and typesetter, I can say that it is extreme= ly off-putting. The eye has nowhere to focus.

> (I would like to state that in my own experience, the difficulties I h= ad when first reading Lojban have since been reversed- that is, what once d= ifficult to read due to lack of that which I am used to seeing in English t= ext is now difficult if those elements *are* there- with the exception of w= hite space, and not counting my difficulty in reading {lonu lojbo bacru cu = na ponse lo denpabu} ("Lojban without the {.}").)

Except that you say that you don't ever see such elements in Lojban tex= t -- so how can you be sure?

Becuase ex= amples of such text have been made, including in this discussion thread. An= d I said I don't see them used. That is, people who frequently w= rite in Lojban don't use them, which is not the same. The CLL has an ex= ample of such possible usage, which you pointed out yourself.=A0

Michael

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=

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