From 3qhaySwcJBr4i2isrywkqemp.gsqpsnferksskpikvsytw.gsq@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 08:20:36 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f141.google.com ([209.85.210.141]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3qhaySwcJBr4i2isrywkqemp.gsqpsnferksskpikvsytw.gsq@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwdF1-0008Iv-Hq for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:20:36 -0700 Received: by yxe5 with SMTP id 5sf1734604yxe.2 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:20:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=U5SNJR6Pj1NQufZCD4xHetPQWRPjnhgQmzAxGqdxoUA=; b=Gwtj8KTZbdd/TFZ1OnBUhlEvhLQjU58FMbbVm+5IFQondNRDZsuRIaBdJmZthFPoUQ oOm0IwsOi7uN8yGJ666XEEt9Jdbxw7nu9Zg2FVDkLQy0A6moiuOx+FQuhxmMFbylbFls ya9nvjwTEz1Pntw+y+4C0ThXnsS6c94nit81Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Dl8m2LmR6QUIg4YmCHl+t+BZ7ubHuxlA3hafjNGDv7VpJ9lGSyLacf8k+Q2ZRMMaSX lwJ8nYbrmwP7TSTcwswxaQlVdhNlFS2uf8jz7bdIQZaPwMMx2XQ+Qq1A2RM66jx1ufhP cTC8EJaTKnqUJR2ezxoQv6RD0mlq5b+RbRXCM= Received: by 10.91.90.9 with SMTP id s9mr6629agl.43.1269962410298; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:20:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls3068992bkd.1.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.48.214 with SMTP id s22mr311227bkf.26.1269962409110; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.48.214 with SMTP id s22mr311226bkf.26.1269962409038; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f176.google.com (mail-wy0-f176.google.com [74.125.82.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e24si6555540bke.6.2010.03.30.08.20.07; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.176; Received: by wyf19 with SMTP id 19so5635865wyf.7 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:20:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.2.209 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:20:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55DD326A-D145-4618-B5D1-4A251BEDE108@gmail.com> References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <702226df1003291319s63636a59t68668f5a79e79d4b@mail.gmail.com> <241890.82160.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <37457605-902E-44CB-BE49-02A30FC20700@gmail.com> <702226df1003300746s108686d3pb7fc2ad4426fb6e9@mail.gmail.com> <55DD326A-D145-4618-B5D1-4A251BEDE108@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:20:07 -0600 Received: by 10.216.87.13 with SMTP id x13mr299418wee.12.1269962407713; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <702226df1003300820j28564a0jea6abaebee905a9f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/65079f9cd89403b Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d99f29309c030483062a8f --0016e6d99f29309c030483062a8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Everson wrote: > On 30 Mar 2010, at 15:46, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > > No they aren't. > > Essentially, they are; to the spell-checker, they are. One is missing a > markup apparatus (which makes it hard to read), but plenty of languages > including European languages have manuscripts that just run things on > without punctuation. The ambiguity gave rise to the punctuation and casing > conventions which users of those languages enjoy today. > > > The second has no indication of sentence separation, incidental clauses, > or a great many other things that written English uses punctuation to > express. Your argument doesn't hold for the simple reason that Englishneeds > punctuation in it's writing to make sense. Lojban doesn't. It's > "punctuation" is words, such as {.i}, {xu}, {mo}, {.ui}, and etc. > > This still does not mean that a markup apparatus is unhelpful for a > language like Lojban. Chinese and Irish have interrogative particles, and > yet they use the question mark. Yes, Lojban is special and interesting > because of its particles, but that doesn't mean that a totally minimalist > typography for it is inherently "superior" to a more familiar typography > with markup apparatus. > > In my opinion. > I do not have to ability to judge what method is "suerior", nor do I claim to do so. I do however, have the ability to state what, in my opinion, is "preferred", and what, in actual fact, is "common", the "totally minimalist typography" being both of these. > > Michael > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6d99f29309c030483062a8f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Everson= <michael= .everson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 30 Mar 2010, at 15:46, Jonathan Jones wrote:

> No they aren't.

Essentially, they are; to the spell-checker, they are. One is missing a mar= kup apparatus (which makes it hard to read), but plenty of languages includ= ing European languages have manuscripts that just run things on without pun= ctuation. The ambiguity gave rise to the punctuation and casing conventions= which users of those languages enjoy today.

> The second has no indication of sentence separation, incidental clause= s, or a great many other things that written English uses punctuation to ex= press. Your argument doesn't hold for the simple reason that Englishnee= ds punctuation in it's writing to make sense. Lojban doesn't. It= 9;s "punctuation" is words, such as {.i}, {xu}, {mo}, {.ui}, and = etc.

This still does not mean that a markup apparatus is unhelpful for a languag= e like Lojban. Chinese and Irish have interrogative particles, and yet they= use the question mark. Yes, Lojban is special and interesting because of i= ts particles, but that doesn't mean that a totally minimalist typograph= y for it is inherently "superior" to a more familiar typography w= ith markup apparatus.

In my opinion.

I do not have to ability= to judge what method is "suerior", nor do I claim to do so. I do= however, have the ability to state what, in my opinion, is "preferred= ", and what, in actual fact, is "common", the "totally = minimalist typography" being both of these.

Michael

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mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
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