From 3oy2ySwQOBs4uxu69EvwBuG5yB.8B0583vu708805y0B8E9C.w86@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 09:58:42 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3oy2ySwQOBs4uxu69EvwBuG5yB.8B0583vu708805y0B8E9C.w86@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nwelt-0006j7-Js for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:58:41 -0700 Received: by vws3 with SMTP id 3sf4939432vws.16 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:58:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from :to:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references:user-agent :mime-version:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kmL2au6RvCxRLx9eLoAhGOXHdJd5ouZ6maweuDtSAmM=; b=QrtFVaJ9EZtZjtDOUSVhN2ksnpJ3hfQxPHEMIpGXp7yJA05w/8C7tr7Y3nnVcbwBOt JrOv4eMIc/tOfdJGfl2+XZi3NlTNYOTMuu+UvwZJfGvxYLj0f6w3QFVvcEfvUGO7VoOh 7TPvwBah8Kv6rfs3v0cdIiDvVMQkgkICH3p20= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to :message-id:references:user-agent:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tXUSdz9GB2+ZIAGdTW7tg9XSHKAheIbzcHmxEurjB5ql7tIjHqJ5mlqC0qAEyar00U b5Z86jVmI4Dnub6VSiHLZLhbS5SonyJLh9U2m6AsNebwt3DsDt4q1aahVN4S2ceGFZ2/ 9qqFHHOKcs2wRuLcoB6GPcFtZ4manTQ8F7oAc= Received: by 10.220.124.227 with SMTP id v35mr634624vcr.15.1269968291333; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:58:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.68.217 with SMTP id w25ls522369vci.1.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.73.204 with SMTP id r12mr1604973vcj.29.1269968289019; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.149.6 with SMTP id r6mr55171ibv.20.1269966561667; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.149.6 with SMTP id r6mr55170ibv.20.1269966561642; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cec.wustl.edu (express.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.21.16]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si832162iwn.6.2010.03.30.09.29.21; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 128.252.21.16 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of adam@pubcrawler.org) client-ip=128.252.21.16; Received: from grid.cec.wustl.edu (grid.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.20.97]) by mail.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D5E1E8050; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:29:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: by grid.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix, from userid 29287) id D1DCC1F7878; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:29:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grid.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C361E1F7836; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:29:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:29:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam D. Lopresto" To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. In-Reply-To: <03BF9A66-9041-4FD8-A910-B8C691D646C5@gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> <8EE07369-765A-49AB-AEC4-1DEC1A904C37@gmail.com> <20100330090253.GG3000@nvg.org> <59C6A282-0F28-4016-98C7-907FBD3C4379@gmail.com> <23298cb41003300332u6bde63fdk9f8b819fff7bf2ce@mail.gmail.com> <20100330142628.GH3000@nvg.org> <03BF9A66-9041-4FD8-A910-B8C691D646C5@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LRH 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 128.252.21.16 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of adam@pubcrawler.org) smtp.mail=adam@pubcrawler.org X-Original-Sender: adam@pubcrawler.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/de05cf1c47b78c8a Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> But the other initials give me pause. Why on Earth is =93Blabi=94 and = =93Ractu=94 >> capitalised? Is it because he is a person, and all references to persons >> are capitalised in this story? > > Yes. He is the White Rabbit and that's what Carroll did. > >> Setting words in italics when they are preceded by the emphasis marker >> =93ba'e=94 is fine, but when they appear on their own it looks illiterat= e. (I >> presume you are merely copying the italics from some English master, and >> the emphasis somehow got lost in the English-to-Lojban translation.) > > "Very" is italicized twice by Carroll. I don't know what "when they appea= r > on their own it looks illiterate" means. When words appear in italics on > their own it looks "illiterate"? I think my problems with both of these come done to the same thing: they br= eak the audiovisual isomorphism. That is, if I were to treat everything but alphanumerics (and apostrophes, commas, periods, etc) as whitespace, I coul= d completely ignore the guillemots, parentheses, etc, and come to exactly the same text. They're just very fancy forms of whitespace. Sentence initial caps, and capitalizing proper names adds nothing interesting (though I'll point out here that I still *HATE* it, personally). But capitalizing {Ractu} and {Blabi}, and italicizing words that are unmark= ed in the text, is adding information. It's as though there's something contained only in the markup, that would be lost if the book were read alou= d. That's just utterly wrong. One of the big principles of Lojban is exactly that audiovisual isomorphism. That's *why* we speak all the punctuation. I can definitely accept the argument that the italics are representing something that should have been preserved, and that the translation is faul= ty for omitting it. If the text were {i ku'i ca le nu le ractu ca'a fu'e .ue lebna lo junla le kosta daski fu'o gi'e li'o}, then the italics wouldn't se= em out of place. >> Comments that apply to both versions: >> The apostrophes in the chapter heading look floating and disconnected be= cause of the large distance between the cap height and the x-height. > > Yeah, that's the font. Weird, but that's not my doing. Maybe pick a different font? >> I disagree with Jorge's insistence on straight apostrophes instead of cu= rly >> apostrophes. Straight apostrophes are an artifact of the conflation of >> apostrophes/foot signs in typewriters, and does not need to used when >> alternatives are available. > > Indeed; this is a matter of taste. The source PDF has curly apostrophes, = and > it's in standard Lojban orthography. Strongly agree that that's just a matter of taste. My own taste runs to straight, but of all of this, that's the thing I care about *least*. Since I haven't voiced my overall opinion yet, I find that I don't overall mind the addition of the guillemets, parentheses, punctuation, etc. I would also strongly prefer a version with dots applied in the normal plac= es (again, I understand they weren't in what you were working from), and for t= hat same reason hate the new dots to end "sentences". I do like acute accents instead of caps for stress marking. If you absolutely *must* capitalize the beginning of sentences (and again, = I really wish you would accept that { .i } is at least as noticeable a senten= ce separator as ". [any capital letter" is in English), I think I do fall into the camp that views {.i} as a separator, instead of being part of either bridi, so capitalizing the next word after it (again, assuming it's not par= t of the joiner, as xorxes points out) would probably be slightly better. --=20 Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ Unlike fine wine and cheese, tuna noodle casserole does *not* improve with age. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.