From 38y2ySwoJBh8NPJHD7CMDNBH5DG.7JHGJE65IBJJBG9BMJPKN.7JH@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 09:59:53 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <38y2ySwoJBh8NPJHD7CMDNBH5DG.7JHGJE65IBJJBG9BMJPKN.7JH@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nwen5-0006jB-7N for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:52 -0700 Received: by mail-vw0-f61.google.com with SMTP id 3sf4939456vws.16 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=sH+viO8sCjvMrW20AnC5JSvaBp8/1sBAeQJsO9i0SB8=; b=1KLXThaVV6H9SUeOx5ICuRhgJC8bC6uhAcBAuANRWeFbRi4eKT9gMnI2he1OD4NCGD i1Tf/KxsqlhXGnLNZHMXPxr2c+uPrQ+CRz1UdOiJFdl8m3NtP3jxYGb0xYEt8AGC+2aj 6Upf0xfQcYQCmlsXsjIah+01ymFSAMn74ajjI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=GFHzjTkcoDNQfHO83psAwCBE44acgvn7/DcVBYFHpqZAxDG7kmY+9a3dcIgyM7Wkw0 /CPiV3EUc9wku6hhzcRWs5eOsl0yJOvYrGfGXiGPQ7NnVBnj6aAQHZhs3VihJxohpaKJ tpDKr3REXoOfO9Gso3Rxx4pYQH2pLR4s6WN9o= Received: by 10.220.124.66 with SMTP id t2mr669644vcr.3.1269968371686; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.47.17 with SMTP id l17ls2748138vcf.5.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.74.69 with SMTP id t5mr1613454vcj.14.1269968370685; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.74.69 with SMTP id t5mr1613453vcj.14.1269968370627; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f180.google.com (mail-gy0-f180.google.com [209.85.160.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 29si13803208vws.2.2010.03.30.09.59.29; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.180; Received: by mail-gy0-f180.google.com with SMTP id 15so6590321gyc.11 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.133.20 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <27513e551003300148q3e78ef25lb01b2032f5b3b98d@mail.gmail.com> From: Christopher Doty Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:09 -0700 Received: by 10.100.22.32 with SMTP id 32mr3650430anv.153.1269968369133; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Getting serious about "Cultural" fi'uvla (was: You're doing it wrong) To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/7096de6ee0848de3 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/6ec3ba10c5483ec0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f7929884a8460483078d1a --001485f7929884a8460483078d1a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One more thought-- Once we have the countries/languages set up, I think we should have a conventionalized way of combining country and language names, so that one can talk about, say, "Moroccan Arabic" or "Indian English" in an establishe= d way. Chris On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 09:52, Christopher Doty wrote= : > I think this is great! I'm going to sort of play devil's advocate and > critique a couple of things. Overall, I think the proposals Oren made ar= e > good, but in the interests of thinking about this stuff, and getting rid = of > cultural biases... > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 01:48, Oren wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 14:27, Christopher Doty >> wrote: >> > Hrm... I wonder about the best way to do this... >> > On the one hand, it seems like they should be cmene, since they are, >> essentially, names. >> >> .i go'i je'a .i ko'a cu cmene >> yes, indeed they are names. >> >> However fi'uvla grant the freedom to make universally regular five-lette= r >> rafsi (and then build better lujvo) AND to neutrally recognize all usefu= l >> "cultures" while avoiding a trade-off with gismuspace. The sensible >> compromise is to make this list a reference for both cmene and fi'uvla. >> Also, this way we can talk about language and politics in lojban without >> having to write in awkWARD CAPital leTTErs. >> > > Yeah, I guess fi'uvla is the way to go. The ones on the list are kind > of.... ugly, I guess, but such is life. I wonder, since I'm not familiar > with the fi'uvla creation process, if we could do something that could ma= ke > these recognizable as the names of countries/languages/etc.? Like, say, = the > first consonant is always /s/? Or is that not worth it...? > > >> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla >> >> ta'o ni'o What is "culture" anyhow? >> >> I want to define our specifications for this, so looked up the definitio= n >> of culture (Mirriam-Webster, see below). In it they specify several orig= ins >> of culture; the primary definition citing race, religion and 'social >> groups,' which may be bound by time or place. I think lojban should focu= s on >> precision first, so the scope should should be restricted to standardize= d >> entities: >> >> 1. Languages - >> autonymic, >> first priority to cover accepted top-level ISO codes, >> then dialect and variant codes, others only deserve cmene. >> >> Again, I agree, but--why do bigger languages get "real" words, and other= s > only "deserve" cmene (regardless, we should probably get the "deserve" ou= t > of the proposal :p)? What about in a few hundred years, when the dominan= t > languages might be totally different, and this will seem really weird? > > I think this is probably the right solution, with the caveat that what ge= ts > fi'uvla needs to be revised occasionally (say, every 100-150 years). Ofte= n > that revision would probably not change much, but it might at some stages= . > >> >> 1. >> 2. Political regions - >> autonymic in official language or most populous official language. >> First priority to cover UN members territories, >> then any self-declared independent regions which at one point had >> normalized relations with any UN-recognized state, so Tibet, Taiwan a= nd the >> Confederate States of America all take precedence over Pedestria, my = own >> sovereign state that I just declared. >> Then once we get these down we automate a cmene-creator to read >> through geonames.org and cover all named territories and populated >> areas. >> >> I think UN is the way to go. I do think it might be worth not using the > "relations with a UN-recognized state," though... I think a better way f= or > autonomous areas and the like would be some sort of Zeitgeist measure--it > seems relevant, for example, to have Chechnya, Basque Country, and Kurdis= tan > fi'uvla if we want to be able to talk about world affairs in Lojban. Tho= se > seem more immediately pressing than, say, the CSA. Again, though, this > would require regular revisions. > > One other issue with both language and country names--are we using the > English form to get the fi'uvla, or the native term? That is, is the > fi'uvla for "Finland/Finnish" derived from "Finland" or from "Suomi?" I'= d > vote the second, as it introduces less bias. And, with languages, should > the language "English" be demonstrably related to "England," or should it > (could it?) be different? > > >> And that's all. I argue that these two alone are the most useful and >> best-defined terms to care about. Here's my feelings on the other portio= ns >> of this page: >> >> 1. Ethnicity? Hard. >> "Ethnicity" and "cultural groups" themselves are loosely defined >> social constructs, may have no easy autonymic solution (like Polynesi= an), >> and can be better expressed directly with {da kulnu de} where de is a >> chromosomal pattern or distinguishing feature for a particular race, = or >> perhaps an activity for a term like 'nomadic,' 'chopsticks' or 'nerd'= or >> whatever. >> >> Yeah, anything with "ethnicity," except as a gismu that says something > reflects/seems like x ethnicity, should be chucked, IMO. > >> >> 1. >> 2. Religion? Tricky. >> As for religion and philosophy, these are much harder to standardize >> (dewey decimal system?) and while useful names, not as specific as th= e ones >> listed above. Naming can also be an issue for multi-lingual schools o= f >> thought. Perhaps these could do with just cmene. >> >> This one is kind of tricky, but I think there should still be fi'uvla fo= r > the major groups, but not subdivisions--so, Christian, Hinduism, Islam, a= nd > Buddhism should probably have one, while Catholicism, Sunni Islam, and Ze= n > Buddhism shouldn't. If we made the cut at 5 million or more followers, w= e'd > have (according to the numbers on Wikipedia): > > Christianity > Islam > Irreligious/Atheism > Hinduism > Folk religion/Deism > Buddhism > Shinto > Sikhism > Judaism > Bah=E1'=ED Faith > Jainism > > I think the "Folk religion" one is especially important, as it would > provide a good way for people to describe their beliefs. Actually, maybe > there should be two gismu: one for "(world?) religion X" and one for > "native religion of X people." We would have to think about Shinto, thou= gh, > since Shinto is basically the native religion of the Japanese people, so = it > might not need it's own fi'uvla, but rather a conventionalized cmene....? > >> >> 1. >> 2. Geography? Who's version? >> Do we stop at Australia or Greenland? To be thorough, I would think >> this should be left to some earth experts to decide just which land m= asses, >> tectonic plates, bodies of water, air masses and climactic systems wo= uld be >> useful to name. On a tangent, how about constellations or a complete >> periodic table of elements? Also, I don't see any way to come up with >> 'autonymic' terms for such natural entities, maybe they are better of= f with >> meaningful lujvo instead. >> >> I am not a geologist/geographer/etc., but my impression was that the ide= a > of the seven standard continents was pretty widely excepted. Oh, but I s= ee > now that that seems to be largely by convention. In looking at the map o= f > the major tectonic plates, though, ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Plates_tect2_en.svg), making the fi'uvl= a > technically mean "a land mass on X plate" might be useful... > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001485f7929884a8460483078d1a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One more thought--

Once we have the countries/languages = set up, I think we should have a conventionalized way of combining country = and language names, so that one can talk about, say, "Moroccan Arabic&= quot; or "Indian English" in an established way.

Chris

On Tue, Mar 30,= 2010 at 09:52, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
I think this is great! =A0I'm going to sort of play devil's advocat= e and critique a couple of things. =A0Overall, I think the proposals Oren m= ade are good, but in the interests of thinking about this stuff, and gettin= g rid of cultural biases...

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 01= :48, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 14:27, Christopher Doty <<= a href=3D"mailto:suomichris@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">suomichris@gmail.c= om> wrote:
> Hrm... I wonder about the best way to do t= his...
> On the one hand, it seems like they should be cmene, since they are, e= ssentially, names.=A0

.i go'i je'a .i ko'a cu cmene
yes, indeed the= y are names.

However fi'uvla grant the freedom to make universal= ly regular five-letter rafsi (and then build better lujvo) AND to neutrally= recognize all useful "cultures" while avoiding a trade-off with = gismuspace. The sensible compromise is to make this list a reference for bo= th cmene and fi'uvla. Also, this way we can talk about language and pol= itics in lojban without having to write in awkWARD CAPital leTTErs.

Yeah, I guess fi'uvla is t= he way to go. =A0The ones on the list are kind of.... ugly, I guess, but su= ch is life. =A0I wonder, since I'm not familiar with the fi'uvla cr= eation process, if we could do something that could make these recognizable= as the names of countries/languages/etc.? =A0Like, say, the first consonan= t is always /s/? =A0Or is that not worth it...?
=A0

ta'o ni'o=A0What is "culture" anyhow?
=
I want to define our specifications for this, so looked up t= he definition of culture (Mirriam-Webster, see below). In it they specify s= everal origins of culture; the primary definition citing race, religion and= 'social groups,' which may be bound by time or place. I think lojb= an should focus on precision first, so the scope should should be restricte= d to standardized entities:
  1. Languages -
    autonymic,
    first priority to cover ac= cepted top-level ISO codes,
    then dialect and variant codes, others only= deserve cmene.
Again, I agree, but--why do bigger languages get "real"= ; words, and others only "deserve" cmene (regardless, we should p= robably get the "deserve" out of the proposal :p)? =A0What about = in a few hundred years, when the dominant languages might be totally differ= ent, and this will seem really weird?

I think this is probably the right solution, with the c= aveat that what gets fi'uvla needs to be revised occasionally (say, eve= ry 100-150 years). Often that revision would probably not change much, but = it might at some stages.

  1. Political regions -
    autonymic in official language or mos= t populous official language.
    First priority to cover UN members territories,
    then any self-declared = independent regions which at one point had normalized relations with any UN= -recognized state, so Tibet, Taiwan and the Confederate States of America a= ll take precedence over Pedestria, my own sovereign state that I just decla= red.
    Then once we get these down we automate a cmene-creator to read through geonames.org and cover a= ll named territories and populated areas.
I think UN is the way to go. I do think it mi= ght be worth not using the "relations with a UN-recognized state,"= ; though... =A0I think a better way for autonomous areas and the like would= be some sort of Zeitgeist measure--it seems relevant, for example, to have= Chechnya, Basque Country, and Kurdistan fi'uvla if we want to be able = to talk about world affairs in Lojban. =A0Those seem more immediately press= ing than, say, the CSA. =A0Again, though, this would require regular revisi= ons.

One other issue with both language and country names--a= re we using the English form to get the fi'uvla, or the native term? = =A0That is, is the fi'uvla for "Finland/Finnish" derived from= "Finland" or from "Suomi?" =A0I'd vote the second,= as it introduces less bias. =A0And, with languages, should the language &q= uot;English" be demonstrably related to "England," or should= it (could it?) be different?
=A0
And that's all.=A0I argue that these two alone are the most= useful and best-defined terms to care about.=A0Here's my feelings on t= he other portions of this page:
  1. Ethnicity? Hard.
    "Ethnicity" and "cultural = groups" themselves are loosely defined social constructs, may have no = easy autonymic solution (like Polynesian), and can be better expressed dire= ctly with {da kulnu de} where de is a chromosomal pattern or distinguishing= feature for a particular race, or perhaps an activity for a term like '= ;nomadic,' 'chopsticks' or 'nerd' or whatever.
Yeah,= anything with "ethnicity," except as a gismu that says something= reflects/seems like x ethnicity, should be chucked, IMO.

  2. Religion? Tricky.
    As for religion and philosophy, these ar= e much harder to standardize (dewey decimal system?) and while useful names= , not as specific as the ones listed above. Naming can also be an issue for= multi-lingual schools of thought. Perhaps these could do with just cmene.<= br>
This = one is kind of tricky, but I think there should still be fi'uvla for th= e major groups, but not subdivisions--so, Christian, Hinduism, Islam, and B= uddhism should probably have one, while Catholicism, Sunni Islam, and Zen B= uddhism shouldn't. =A0If we made the cut at 5 million or more followers= , we'd have (according to the numbers on Wikipedia):

Christianity
Islam
Irreli= gious/Atheism
Hinduism
Folk religion/Deism=
Buddhism
Shinto
Sikhism
Ju= daism
Bah=E1'=ED Faith
Jainism

I think the "Folk religion" one is especially= important, as it would provide a good way for people to describe their bel= iefs. =A0Actually, maybe there should be two gismu: =A0one for "(world= ?) religion X" and one for "native religion of X people." = =A0We would have to think about Shinto, though, since Shinto is basically t= he native religion of the Japanese people, so it might not need it's ow= n fi'uvla, but rather a conventionalized cmene....?

  2. Geography? Who's version?
    Do we stop at Australia or G= reenland?=A0To be thorough, I would think this should be left to some earth= experts to decide just which land masses, tectonic plates, bodies of water= , air masses and climactic systems would be useful to name. On a tangent, h= ow about constellations or a complete periodic table of elements? Also, I d= on't see any way to come up with 'autonymic' terms for such nat= ural entities, maybe they are better off with meaningful lujvo instead.
I am not a= geologist/geographer/etc., but my impression was that the idea of the seve= n standard continents was pretty widely excepted. =A0Oh, but I see now that= that seems to be largely by convention. =A0In looking at the map of the ma= jor tectonic plates, though, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pl= ates_tect2_en.svg), making the fi'uvla technically mean "a lan= d mass on X plate" might be useful...

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