From 3xkmySwoJBg46820wqv5w6u0owz.q20z2xpo1u22uzsu52836.q20@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 11:58:46 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3xkmySwoJBg46820wqv5w6u0owz.q20z2xpo1u22uzsu52836.q20@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nwge3-0005oh-BC for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:58:45 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf9581963ywh.28 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:58:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=0KIiQD3zIu1t/N9LN1BktzwHXVUmJyCe6mNvU62nR1s=; b=SeZwVc1LbUMPcFlspPq1Dd7QX6y96uR8/zOJCo3tSkRwuKUwrZcYC/T50JtsBId/Lf kd7u8FrUvqK/2rYqJVCf+hX8YVfx+EZevsacfP8jEYF8fPx5NgrWbEZ5OH7ZEuCi79LJ SF1MQMX2ZXqASwu/qAhA8VOFqcVmZDqjW4iyc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=RfkxjR0ag+C0BXouCe3MRGjNucZMNAvXhWOtk9LMFEgv9jRtGpoSLvZo2OGYJ+l7g7 r2kr7yEOaD5BYw8kHf5Zi1+zZ9eCwmy9QYJAVaYuxftOm0DwiPog4OBzIYtjuprBgr+I 9OoRDTVtrf50G2fnVAfvB5ZK0gyHm1VJTiPd4= Received: by 10.151.32.2 with SMTP id k2mr118915ybj.88.1269975494087; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:58:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.91.6 with SMTP id t6ls773974agl.0.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.1.40 with SMTP id 40mr8210167aga.9.1269975492824; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.1.40 with SMTP id 40mr8210159aga.9.1269975492596; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f181.google.com (mail-yx0-f181.google.com [209.85.210.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si89787yxe.6.2010.03.30.11.58.11; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.181; Received: by mail-yx0-f181.google.com with SMTP id 11so2327056yxe.10 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:58:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.133.20 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:57:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <27513e551003300148q3e78ef25lb01b2032f5b3b98d@mail.gmail.com> From: Christopher Doty Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:57:51 -0700 Received: by 10.100.246.15 with SMTP id t15mr5502793anh.29.1269975491215; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Getting serious about "Cultural" fi'uvla (was: You're doing it wrong) To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/7096de6ee0848de3 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/4bb8c688920a3777 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68debcb0703aa0483093607 --0016e68debcb0703aa0483093607 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oren, what did you intend by "top-level?" I don't know the term, and can't find a sorted/divided list... One interesting idea for coming up with the language names could be to try and incorporate the three letters of the ISO code for the language into the fu'ivla, ideally in the same order, even if not adjacent. This would make i= t more "logical," and avoid any additional cultural bias in deciding which term for the language to use to derive the lojban (and maybe even try to incorporate a location for the other bit of the fu'ivla?). So we might hav= e things like: English ISO code Lojban fu'ivla 'Amharic' amh fra'ama (Amharic also demonstrates a good reason to use such a list--it has more than 20 million speakers, more than Hebrew, but it isn't on the cultural fu'ivla list!) And FYI, in case people want to take a look without having to Google: List of UN Member states: http://www.un.org/en/members/ Chris On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 09:59, Christopher Doty wrote= : > One more thought-- > > Once we have the countries/languages set up, I think we should have a > conventionalized way of combining country and language names, so that one > can talk about, say, "Moroccan Arabic" or "Indian English" in an establis= hed > way. > > Chris > > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 09:52, Christopher Doty wro= te: > >> I think this is great! I'm going to sort of play devil's advocate and >> critique a couple of things. Overall, I think the proposals Oren made a= re >> good, but in the interests of thinking about this stuff, and getting rid= of >> cultural biases... >> >> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 01:48, Oren wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 14:27, Christopher Doty >>> wrote: >>> > Hrm... I wonder about the best way to do this... >>> > On the one hand, it seems like they should be cmene, since they are, >>> essentially, names. >>> >>> .i go'i je'a .i ko'a cu cmene >>> yes, indeed they are names. >>> >>> However fi'uvla grant the freedom to make universally regular five-lett= er >>> rafsi (and then build better lujvo) AND to neutrally recognize all usef= ul >>> "cultures" while avoiding a trade-off with gismuspace. The sensible >>> compromise is to make this list a reference for both cmene and fi'uvla. >>> Also, this way we can talk about language and politics in lojban withou= t >>> having to write in awkWARD CAPital leTTErs. >>> >> >> Yeah, I guess fi'uvla is the way to go. The ones on the list are kind >> of.... ugly, I guess, but such is life. I wonder, since I'm not familia= r >> with the fi'uvla creation process, if we could do something that could m= ake >> these recognizable as the names of countries/languages/etc.? Like, say,= the >> first consonant is always /s/? Or is that not worth it...? >> >> >>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cultural+fu'ivla >>> >>> ta'o ni'o What is "culture" anyhow? >>> >>> I want to define our specifications for this, so looked up the definiti= on >>> of culture (Mirriam-Webster, see below). In it they specify several ori= gins >>> of culture; the primary definition citing race, religion and 'social >>> groups,' which may be bound by time or place. I think lojban should foc= us on >>> precision first, so the scope should should be restricted to standardiz= ed >>> entities: >>> >>> 1. Languages - >>> autonymic, >>> first priority to cover accepted top-level ISO codes, >>> then dialect and variant codes, others only deserve cmene. >>> >>> Again, I agree, but--why do bigger languages get "real" words, and othe= rs >> only "deserve" cmene (regardless, we should probably get the "deserve" o= ut >> of the proposal :p)? What about in a few hundred years, when the domina= nt >> languages might be totally different, and this will seem really weird? >> >> I think this is probably the right solution, with the caveat that what >> gets fi'uvla needs to be revised occasionally (say, every 100-150 years)= . >> Often that revision would probably not change much, but it might at some >> stages. >> >>> >>> 1. >>> 2. Political regions - >>> autonymic in official language or most populous official language. >>> First priority to cover UN members territories, >>> then any self-declared independent regions which at one point had >>> normalized relations with any UN-recognized state, so Tibet, Taiwan = and the >>> Confederate States of America all take precedence over Pedestria, my= own >>> sovereign state that I just declared. >>> Then once we get these down we automate a cmene-creator to read >>> through geonames.org and cover all named territories and populated >>> areas. >>> >>> I think UN is the way to go. I do think it might be worth not using the >> "relations with a UN-recognized state," though... I think a better way = for >> autonomous areas and the like would be some sort of Zeitgeist measure--i= t >> seems relevant, for example, to have Chechnya, Basque Country, and Kurdi= stan >> fi'uvla if we want to be able to talk about world affairs in Lojban. Th= ose >> seem more immediately pressing than, say, the CSA. Again, though, this >> would require regular revisions. >> >> One other issue with both language and country names--are we using the >> English form to get the fi'uvla, or the native term? That is, is the >> fi'uvla for "Finland/Finnish" derived from "Finland" or from "Suomi?" I= 'd >> vote the second, as it introduces less bias. And, with languages, shoul= d >> the language "English" be demonstrably related to "England," or should i= t >> (could it?) be different? >> >> >>> And that's all. I argue that these two alone are the most useful and >>> best-defined terms to care about. Here's my feelings on the other porti= ons >>> of this page: >>> >>> 1. Ethnicity? Hard. >>> "Ethnicity" and "cultural groups" themselves are loosely defined >>> social constructs, may have no easy autonymic solution (like Polynes= ian), >>> and can be better expressed directly with {da kulnu de} where de is = a >>> chromosomal pattern or distinguishing feature for a particular race,= or >>> perhaps an activity for a term like 'nomadic,' 'chopsticks' or 'nerd= ' or >>> whatever. >>> >>> Yeah, anything with "ethnicity," except as a gismu that says something >> reflects/seems like x ethnicity, should be chucked, IMO. >> >>> >>> 1. >>> 2. Religion? Tricky. >>> As for religion and philosophy, these are much harder to standardize >>> (dewey decimal system?) and while useful names, not as specific as t= he ones >>> listed above. Naming can also be an issue for multi-lingual schools = of >>> thought. Perhaps these could do with just cmene. >>> >>> This one is kind of tricky, but I think there should still be fi'uvla f= or >> the major groups, but not subdivisions--so, Christian, Hinduism, Islam, = and >> Buddhism should probably have one, while Catholicism, Sunni Islam, and Z= en >> Buddhism shouldn't. If we made the cut at 5 million or more followers, = we'd >> have (according to the numbers on Wikipedia): >> >> Christianity >> Islam >> Irreligious/Atheism >> Hinduism >> Folk religion/Deism >> Buddhism >> Shinto >> Sikhism >> Judaism >> Bah=E1'=ED Faith >> Jainism >> >> I think the "Folk religion" one is especially important, as it would >> provide a good way for people to describe their beliefs. Actually, mayb= e >> there should be two gismu: one for "(world?) religion X" and one for >> "native religion of X people." We would have to think about Shinto, tho= ugh, >> since Shinto is basically the native religion of the Japanese people, so= it >> might not need it's own fi'uvla, but rather a conventionalized cmene....= ? >> >>> >>> 1. >>> 2. Geography? Who's version? >>> Do we stop at Australia or Greenland? To be thorough, I would think >>> this should be left to some earth experts to decide just which land = masses, >>> tectonic plates, bodies of water, air masses and climactic systems w= ould be >>> useful to name. On a tangent, how about constellations or a complete >>> periodic table of elements? Also, I don't see any way to come up wit= h >>> 'autonymic' terms for such natural entities, maybe they are better o= ff with >>> meaningful lujvo instead. >>> >>> I am not a geologist/geographer/etc., but my impression was that the id= ea >> of the seven standard continents was pretty widely excepted. Oh, but I = see >> now that that seems to be largely by convention. In looking at the map = of >> the major tectonic plates, though, ( >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Plates_tect2_en.svg), making the >> fi'uvla technically mean "a land mass on X plate" might be useful... >> > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e68debcb0703aa0483093607 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oren, what did you intend by "top-level?" =A0I don't kno= w the term, and can't find a sorted/divided list...

One interesting idea for coming up with the language names could be t= o try and incorporate the three letters of the ISO code for the language in= to the fu'ivla, ideally in the same order, even if not adjacent. This w= ould make it more "logical," and avoid any additional cultural bi= as in deciding which term for the language to use to derive the lojban (and= maybe even try to incorporate a location for the other bit of the fu'i= vla?). =A0So we might have things like:

English =A0ISO code =A0Lojban fu'ivla
'Amharic' =A0 amh =A0 =A0 fra'ama
<= div>
(Amharic also demonstrates a good reas= on to use such a list--it has more than 20 million speakers, more than Hebr= ew, but it isn't on the cultural fu'ivla list!)

And FYI, in case people want to take a = look without having to Google:

List of UN Member states:=A0http://www.un.org/en/members/
Chris

On Tue, Mar 30, = 2010 at 09:59, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wr= ote:
One more thought--

Once w= e have the countries/languages set up, I think we should have a conventiona= lized way of combining country and language names, so that one can talk abo= ut, say, "Moroccan Arabic" or "Indian English" in an es= tablished way.

Chris


On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 09:52, Christopher Doty <= ;suomichris@gmail= .com> wrote:
I think this is great! =A0I'm going to sort of play devil's advocat= e and critique a couple of things. =A0Overall, I think the proposals Oren m= ade are good, but in the interests of thinking about this stuff, and gettin= g rid of cultural biases...

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 01:48, Oren <= get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 14:27, Christopher Doty <<= a href=3D"mailto:suomichris@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">suomichris@gmail.c= om> wrote:
> Hrm... I wonder about the best way to do t= his...
> On the one hand, it seems like they should be cmene, since they are, e= ssentially, names.=A0

.i go'i je'a .i ko'a cu cmene
yes, indeed the= y are names.

However fi'uvla grant the freedom to make universal= ly regular five-letter rafsi (and then build better lujvo) AND to neutrally= recognize all useful "cultures" while avoiding a trade-off with = gismuspace. The sensible compromise is to make this list a reference for bo= th cmene and fi'uvla. Also, this way we can talk about language and pol= itics in lojban without having to write in awkWARD CAPital leTTErs.

Yeah, I guess fi'uvla is t= he way to go. =A0The ones on the list are kind of.... ugly, I guess, but su= ch is life. =A0I wonder, since I'm not familiar with the fi'uvla cr= eation process, if we could do something that could make these recognizable= as the names of countries/languages/etc.? =A0Like, say, the first consonan= t is always /s/? =A0Or is that not worth it...?
=A0

ta'o ni'o=A0What is "culture" anyhow?
=
I want to define our specifications for this, so looked up t= he definition of culture (Mirriam-Webster, see below). In it they specify s= everal origins of culture; the primary definition citing race, religion and= 'social groups,' which may be bound by time or place. I think lojb= an should focus on precision first, so the scope should should be restricte= d to standardized entities:
  1. Languages -
    autonymic,
    first priority to cover ac= cepted top-level ISO codes,
    then dialect and variant codes, others only= deserve cmene.
Again, I agree, but--why do bigger languages get "real"= ; words, and others only "deserve" cmene (regardless, we should p= robably get the "deserve" out of the proposal :p)? =A0What about = in a few hundred years, when the dominant languages might be totally differ= ent, and this will seem really weird?

I think this is probably the right solution, with the c= aveat that what gets fi'uvla needs to be revised occasionally (say, eve= ry 100-150 years). Often that revision would probably not change much, but = it might at some stages.

  1. Political regions -
    autonymic in official language or mos= t populous official language.
    First priority to cover UN members territories,
    then any self-declared = independent regions which at one point had normalized relations with any UN= -recognized state, so Tibet, Taiwan and the Confederate States of America a= ll take precedence over Pedestria, my own sovereign state that I just decla= red.
    Then once we get these down we automate a cmene-creator to read through geonames.org and cover a= ll named territories and populated areas.
I think UN is the way to go. I do think it mi= ght be worth not using the "relations with a UN-recognized state,"= ; though... =A0I think a better way for autonomous areas and the like would= be some sort of Zeitgeist measure--it seems relevant, for example, to have= Chechnya, Basque Country, and Kurdistan fi'uvla if we want to be able = to talk about world affairs in Lojban. =A0Those seem more immediately press= ing than, say, the CSA. =A0Again, though, this would require regular revisi= ons.

One other issue with both language and country names--a= re we using the English form to get the fi'uvla, or the native term? = =A0That is, is the fi'uvla for "Finland/Finnish" derived from= "Finland" or from "Suomi?" =A0I'd vote the second,= as it introduces less bias. =A0And, with languages, should the language &q= uot;English" be demonstrably related to "England," or should= it (could it?) be different?
=A0
And that's all.=A0I argue that these two alone are the most= useful and best-defined terms to care about.=A0Here's my feelings on t= he other portions of this page:
  1. Ethnicity? Hard.
    "Ethnicity" and "cultural = groups" themselves are loosely defined social constructs, may have no = easy autonymic solution (like Polynesian), and can be better expressed dire= ctly with {da kulnu de} where de is a chromosomal pattern or distinguishing= feature for a particular race, or perhaps an activity for a term like '= ;nomadic,' 'chopsticks' or 'nerd' or whatever.
Yeah,= anything with "ethnicity," except as a gismu that says something= reflects/seems like x ethnicity, should be chucked, IMO.

  2. Religion? Tricky.
    As for religion and philosophy, these ar= e much harder to standardize (dewey decimal system?) and while useful names= , not as specific as the ones listed above. Naming can also be an issue for= multi-lingual schools of thought. Perhaps these could do with just cmene.<= br>
This = one is kind of tricky, but I think there should still be fi'uvla for th= e major groups, but not subdivisions--so, Christian, Hinduism, Islam, and B= uddhism should probably have one, while Catholicism, Sunni Islam, and Zen B= uddhism shouldn't. =A0If we made the cut at 5 million or more followers= , we'd have (according to the numbers on Wikipedia):

Christianity
Islam
Irreli= gious/Atheism
Hinduism
Folk religion/Deism=
Buddhism
Shinto
Sikhism
Ju= daism
Bah=E1'=ED Faith
Jainism

I think the "Folk religion" one is especially= important, as it would provide a good way for people to describe their bel= iefs. =A0Actually, maybe there should be two gismu: =A0one for "(world= ?) religion X" and one for "native religion of X people." = =A0We would have to think about Shinto, though, since Shinto is basically t= he native religion of the Japanese people, so it might not need it's ow= n fi'uvla, but rather a conventionalized cmene....?
<= div>

  2. Geography? Who's version?
    Do we stop at Australia or G= reenland?=A0To be thorough, I would think this should be left to some earth= experts to decide just which land masses, tectonic plates, bodies of water= , air masses and climactic systems would be useful to name. On a tangent, h= ow about constellations or a complete periodic table of elements? Also, I d= on't see any way to come up with 'autonymic' terms for such nat= ural entities, maybe they are better off with meaningful lujvo instead.
I am not a= geologist/geographer/etc., but my impression was that the idea of the seve= n standard continents was pretty widely excepted. =A0Oh, but I see now that= that seems to be largely by convention. =A0In looking at the map of the ma= jor tectonic plates, though, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pl= ates_tect2_en.svg), making the fi'uvla technically mean "a lan= d mass on X plate" might be useful...


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