From 3OVCySw8JBocxtnslpw.p6p23zyrxltw.nzxwzumlyrzzrwpr2z503.nzx@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 12:26:12 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3OVCySw8JBocxtnslpw.p6p23zyrxltw.nzxwzumlyrzzrwpr2z503.nzx@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nwh4h-0007dl-Nt for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:26:12 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf9615143ywh.28 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:26:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:mime-version :subject:from:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8MdBThXG/0OP/4QIA9UwDES51j5s+MtZlGF44gHoozs=; b=7KbmY5e51O/tNB2hOeTTXYqYby+761X2DWfMPnoVYu/Zj59sdycCjFNJDxWODJe7Ej JFdFR86b90QcZ2sC/jvxN6o0dww7RGxJYqQrBHKbUFQpslI996r7ZLAyPRJNeZX8XELp fN18YyDa/gQAyIvqc3VckUALLWk1rh2qRgouY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=rfGKdMVn4Cxnkt1RUfozWLQylhzNUMSQDGu2/snDawHytIMzL13/zNdYn5v4jGIans vYWqymg1UNU8yRS4kdekhtWdzebXN7yP4RDGBjrJfAkalhjnd1p5nkCXOYj+h2kg00Pi dfgp7PiCwaXKFyXmnp1WMJr5HRwTPCtVITWS4= Received: by 10.150.172.42 with SMTP id u42mr168501ybe.60.1269977146043; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:25:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls3148208bkd.1.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.154.65 with SMTP id n1mr449765bkw.10.1269977144297; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.154.65 with SMTP id n1mr449764bkw.10.1269977144264; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f171.google.com (mail-wy0-f171.google.com [74.125.82.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a10si6777348bkc.5.2010.03.30.12.25.42; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.171; Received: by wyb32 with SMTP id 32so5432413wyb.16 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.85.143 with SMTP id u15mr110047wee.205.1269977142596; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (murrisk2.westnet.ie [88.81.100.235]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m5sm18695772gve.25.2010.03.30.12.25.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Subject: Re: [lojban] My opinion on Lojban typography variants, and the la .alis. sample page From: Michael Everson In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:25:39 +0100 Message-Id: References: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003291109p6508ea18q8fd9cd68f593a70c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> <8EE07369-765A-49AB-AEC4-1DEC1A904C37@gmail.com> <20100330090253.GG3000@nvg.org> <59C6A282-0F28-4016-98C7-907FBD3C4379@gmail.com> <23298cb41003300332u6bde63fdk9f8b819fff7bf2ce@mail.gmail.com> To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=michael.everson@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: michael.everson@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/8aad12df815d4372 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 30 Mar 2010, at 15:29, Kevin Reid wrote: > Before anything else, I would like to say that I admire your patience and= your goal to balance typographical aesthetics and the wishes of the Lojban= community. Thank you, Kevin. > I notice that your =93normal=94 (left side) Lojban text lacks any =93.=94= whatsoever. One of your objections seems to be the absence of non-letter-b= ased cues to beginnings and ends of sentences; how about inserting the =93.= =94 before =93i=94? I think if the text is undotted, then it is undotted (which is why the full= stop is available for its traditional use). > One could debate whether doing just this is worse than fully-dotted or fu= lly-undotted Lojban text, and whether it would mislead beginners into think= ing that =93.=94 has something to do with sentence separation, but it at le= ast has the advantage of being =93not wrong=94 and increasing the visibilit= y of sentence separators. I, for one, am used to reading =93.i=94 as being = the sentence separator. In fact, considering that a real speaker will pause= between sentences, arguably even =93... cu tcidu. i ku'i cy ...=94 is not = wrong as a representation. I appreciate that argument! > I think it should be at least tried to have the Lojban text fully dotted = (=93.i=94, =93cy.=94, =93.alis.=94, etc.); even if they do not fall on sent= ence separations, they add visual structure and might reduce the =93wall of= text=94 appearance of your left-side page. Well, fine, but such a text is not available. > I note that you have placed capitalization-and-period for each plain =93i= =94, and the =93i ku'i=94, but not the logically-connected =93i ca bo=94 (l= ine 4 of paragraph 2) or =93i je nai ji'a=94 (line 1 of paragraph 3). I fin= d this to be inconsistent; if you're going to be strict about Latin convent= ions between unconnected sentences, you should use semicolons between these= connected sentences. No, that was a error in not parsing "icabo" and "ijenaiji'a".=20 > My opinion on the matter in general: >=20 > I see three major categories of possible differences: >=20 > 1. Those which represent Lojban structure differently. For example, > writing =E1=E9=ED=F3=FA instead of AEIOU for syllable stress. Correct. > 2. Those which add redundant cues to the existing sentence structure. > For example, adding quotation marks and question marks, or > italicizing {ba'e}-marked words. Correct. > 3. Those which add information. For example, capitalizing some > sumti-selbri but not others, such as you have done with =93lo Blabi > Ractu=94 vs. =93le glare djedi=94, or adding italics where there were= no > emphasis markers in the text, such as in =93le Ractu ca'a lebna lo > junla le kosta daski=94. The White Rabbit is the name of a speaking character in the book, whose nam= e was distinguished by means of capitalization from an ordinary adjective-a= nd-noun by Lewis Carroll. Even in French where capitalization of nouns is n= ot as common as it is in English, he's called "le Lapin Blanc".=20 > I do not mind the first (especially when they have aesthetic value such a= s, in my opinion, the use of accents instead of uppercase), am ambivalent a= bout the second (especially as they are somewhat analogous to a speaker's u= se of tone), and object to the third (because I feel it will confuse the re= ader as to the actual structure and significant aspects of Lojban text). In this case I was thinking that the front matter would make clear what cap= italization is being used for, in the essay that discusses the differences = between standard Lojban usage and the usage in the book.=20 In case you want to compare the English and non-standard Lojban:=20 http://www.evertype.com/books/alice-en-jbo-p-1.png Michael --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.