From 3YJ2ySwgJBvsjhw.ruhqjpdlo.frpormedqjrrjohjurxsv.frp@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 17:55:21 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f155.google.com ([209.85.222.155]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3YJ2ySwgJBvsjhw.ruhqjpdlo.frpormedqjrrjohjurxsv.frp@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwmDE-0007FX-IV for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:55:20 -0700 Received: by pzk27 with SMTP id 27sf22472pzk.2 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:55:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:from:date :received:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=d6QabNtOXoyQdKjc2z9pxRYRTsvgdSDXSJtSBsO9HN8=; b=4SnTE10uqsSbs/LylYa/xizc/l9CRrY/PTqMBwGWh3wMnrREigi2fnT2n6A1qnF4bW 5f3vNsAV6x2dR0NTYeXaQJ5D4CAzD8BQYrMBn3iQLFotrgL0v51uYQmkaDiA+WG96rlo negEWbk0LEu+Ggt8nVBfiOTzlK//x1WUeeRFw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject :to:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=15rIPmqKxPgm8LGMrG6U8d7ALryPlFBANqfLLo8B6bj7lrMq20pUdHFjhJLkFj9eLB 93otJAkSstmTuOKT0s4LL5+v3v9FwBaQv2aVYziQ7cQVFU0+9/HDJ5qRWoCT0m/jzNJf 2COlQx5IdphQ6GNcVnzaUHMV/ltOJf2YLr5Dk= Received: by 10.142.195.4 with SMTP id s4mr168041wff.32.1269996896034; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:54:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.2.23 with SMTP id 23ls4549wfb.3.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.60.20 with SMTP id i20mr1067380wfa.13.1269996893232; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.60.20 with SMTP id i20mr1067379wfa.13.1269996893196; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f47.google.com (mail-pw0-f47.google.com [209.85.160.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si1348308pzk.14.2010.03.30.17.54.52; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.47; Received: by pwj5 with SMTP id 5so4385527pwj.34 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:54:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:54:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Oren Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:54:32 +0800 Received: by 10.142.208.11 with SMTP id f11mr1523126wfg.125.1269996892088; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <27513e551003301754r59742064t100db2c4383ec2b3@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Getting serious about "Cultural" fu'ivla (was: You're doing it wrong) To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ca0b5d708b530387 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/f9d0b25fd8eb71c0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd32ab09e6b7804830e31ea --000e0cd32ab09e6b7804830e31ea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 One reason I really admire lojban is it can remove bullshit from human discourse. With well-defined functional ways to say things, you expose subjectivity and biased argument on virtually a syntactic level. The discussion about la .alis these past days I noticed 'weasel words' in Michael's emails quite frequently-- words like Latin and typography were berthed by good connotations, and in the opposing corner were words like jettison, oddball, etc. And then his conclusions were all based on self-substantiated appeals to facility and reading aid. If ko'a had written in lojban, I daresay that it would be much clearer that he was coming from a purely aesthetic stance, and that arguing about convention, learners' impressions and standards were tangential. I think that, like 'jettison' and 'oddball,' cultural terminology as we use it in natural language consists much more in subjective social constructs that anything terribly clear. Look up a rigorous definition of ethnicity, and you'll find that its accepted to be a social construct. We need not labor the point that Religion varies from participant to participant, community to community. When I say that I am Hispanic and Christian, have I really said anything beyond murky affiliation to names of some murkily defined communities? Obviously, its very important to be able to talk about things like religion and ethnicity. But unlike (legal) nationality and language, they don't have qualifications and acknowledged standards. On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 03:29, MorphemeAddict wrote: > I don't think equating cultures to the main country they typically occur in > is a good idea. What's better? I think you allude to usage where political generalizations would not align with a given culture-- i.e. minorities. In such cases, I think that language or country of origin are often to bear the most direct clarification-- for example, "My family lives in the United States and speaks Spanish" is much more clarifying than "My family is hispanic." I'm open to hearing alternatives, I would argue that cultural generalizations, such as several dozen multi-functioning gismu do us much less justice. I mean, what do we do if someone says { .i mi kulnu rakso } ...except guess whether they speak kurdish or a rural variant of iraqi arabic? Language is the predominant vessel of 'cultural lineage' and the legal systems of defined political territories define communities bound in time and space. Tell me a more useful alternative that couldn't do with a tanru or lujvo. For religion or ethnicity, tanru or lujvo are better, because when these terms DO have a meaningful definition, why not use it? What does it mean to say I'm Confucian? Well, if I don't respect my elders and exhibit aspirations to follow the examples of my predecessors, I don't really live a Confucian life. So, confucianism might be respect-follow-examplism, or social-hierarchicalism. If there is no clear definition of a school of thought, then an objective characterizing feature is appropriate. Monotheism covers lots of bases, and you can add some more gismu to 'pacevni' to get the desired denominational variety. I see advantages to talking about Sunni and Shi'a using terminology that highlight objective differences in practice, rather than just knowing the most common name for the sects by their followers. co'o mi'e korbi -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd32ab09e6b7804830e31ea Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One reason I really admire lojban is it can remo= ve bullshit from human discourse. With well-defined functional ways to say = things, you expose subjectivity and biased argument on virtually a syntacti= c level. The discussion about la .alis these past days I noticed 'wease= l words' in Michael's emails quite frequently-- words like Latin an= d typography were berthed by good connotations, and in the opposing corner = were words like jettison, oddball, etc. And then his conclusions were all b= ased on self-substantiated appeals to facility and reading aid. If ko'a= had written in lojban, I daresay that it would be much clearer that he was= coming from a purely aesthetic stance, and that arguing about convention, = learners' impressions and standards were tangential.

I think that, like 'jettison' and 'oddball,= ' cultural terminology as we use it in natural language consists much m= ore in subjective social constructs that anything terribly clear. Look up a= rigorous definition of ethnicity, and you'll find that its accepted to= be a social construct. We need not labor the point that Religion varies fr= om participant to participant, community to community. When I say that I am= Hispanic and Christian, have I really said anything beyond murky affiliati= on to names of some=A0murkily=A0defined communities?

Obviously, its very important to be able to talk about = things like religion and ethnicity. But unlike (legal) nationality and lang= uage, they don't have qualifications and acknowledged standards.

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 03:29, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
I don't think equating cultures to the main country they typically occu= r in is a good idea.

What's bette= r?

I think you allude to usage where political generalization= s would not align with a given culture-- i.e. minorities. In such cases, I = think that language or country of origin are often to bear the most direct = clarification-- for example, "My family lives in the United States and= speaks Spanish" is much more clarifying than "My family is hispa= nic." I'm open to hearing alternatives,=A0I would argue that cultu= ral generalizations, such as several dozen multi-functioning gismu do us mu= ch less justice. I mean, what do we do if someone says { .i mi kulnu rakso = } ...except guess whether they speak kurdish or a rural variant of iraqi ar= abic? Language is the predominant vessel of 'cultural lineage' and = the legal systems of defined political territories define communities bound= in time and space. Tell me a more useful alternative that couldn't do = with a tanru or lujvo.

For religion or ethnicity, tanru or lujvo are better, bec= ause when these terms DO have a meaningful definition, why not use it? What= does it mean to say I'm Confucian? Well, if I don't respect my eld= ers and exhibit aspirations to follow the examples of my predecessors, I do= n't really live a Confucian life. So, confucianism might be respect-fol= low-examplism, or social-hierarchicalism. If there is no clear definition o= f a school of thought, then an objective characterizing feature is appropri= ate. Monotheism covers lots of bases, and you can add some more gismu to &#= 39;pacevni' to get the desired denominational variety. I see advantages= to talking about Sunni and Shi'a using terminology that highlight obje= ctive differences in practice, rather than just knowing the most common nam= e for the sects by their followers.

co'o mi'e korbi

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