From 3d6WySwgJBhs75K.FI5E7D19C.3FDCFA21E7FF7C57IFLGJ.3FD@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Mar 30 18:29:54 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3d6WySwgJBhs75K.FI5E7D19C.3FDCFA21E7FF7C57IFLGJ.3FD@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nwmkf-0001CR-2B for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:29:54 -0700 Received: by vws19 with SMTP id 19sf229885vws.16 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:29:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=2oI4lwUR6i3BN0Zc4m+17MzA9UlwbUzg0PrCvRpW7Jc=; b=4PHE2Z0PcN6nFCPYN0XrA2VGNc7w149qu0PTqJwif7bQctpSHIosYdMctCYZUvJ13p tDw2bEZr6yiqodiKhywjS+gW0p4MkFMWn3zCXr6Cbop/nlgUVqDHPXkBSPnUt9VI3zyy gNFEjhyQhZrbQfvPvbpF2lKelYc/hjorD1j7c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=0YVgY72lFUtAbhgFWYPYPOi91MN6qnOsxIhqw0IydP4+ldOPplSVZd4pFa4CEQ/JfQ KjDUDSsGGJuTn2Md6iQx0O5jL1IZ20T+hOyyL5uqwvOsoDQbLyzXbAoVCTZWhs6gFSec 7giBGz+CcEEu1ANnAKE2F0Fc7ySsOyEr6fsI4= Received: by 10.220.122.234 with SMTP id m42mr107371vcr.59.1269998967905; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:29:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.47.17 with SMTP id l17ls25478vcf.5.p; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.162.85 with SMTP id u21mr1801032vcx.28.1269998965771; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.162.85 with SMTP id u21mr1801031vcx.28.1269998965710; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.27]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 31si14864397vws.4.2010.03.30.18.29.24; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.27 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.92.27; Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 8so3449263qwh.47 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:29:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.91.74 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:29:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <27513e551003300148q3e78ef25lb01b2032f5b3b98d@mail.gmail.com> From: Oren Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:29:04 +0800 Received: by 10.229.212.132 with SMTP id gs4mr710150qcb.53.1269998964405; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <27513e551003301829u64cdc631ka11c7eaee1665a37@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Getting serious about "Cultural" fi'uvla (was: You're doing it wrong) To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.27 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/7096de6ee0848de3 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/1eef5b2a014b952c Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016362837fa23dbc404830eadec --0016362837fa23dbc404830eadec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 00:52, Christopher Doty wrote= : > > if we could do something that could make these recognizable as the names > of countries/languages/etc.? Like, say, the first consonant is always /s= /? > Or is that not worth it...? > > If we want a dense and obvious indicator, we can just use { gugde + } No, I'm serious. Again, I agree, but--why do bigger languages get "real" words, and others > only "deserve" cmene (regardless, we should probably get the "deserve" ou= t > of the proposal :p)? What about in a few hundred years, when the dominan= t > languages might be totally different, and this will seem really weird? > I think this is probably the right solution, with the caveat that what gets > fi'uvla needs to be revised occasionally (say, every 100-150 years). Ofte= n > that revision would probably not change much, but it might at some stages= . > I figure leave the standards up to ISO, as new languages warrant official recognition as new distinct forms, these can change. One other issue with both language and country names--are we using the > English form to get the fi'uvla, or the native term? That is, is the > fi'uvla for "Finland/Finnish" derived from "Finland" or from "Suomi?" I'= d > vote the second, as it introduces less bias. And, with languages, should > the language "English" be demonstrably related to "England," or should it > (could it?) be different? > Right. Autonymic =3D in its own language. So if everyone uses something tha= t sounds like 'English' to refer to a language, thats what we mimic with the cmene/fu'ivla Yeah, anything with "ethnicity," except as a gismu that says something > reflects/seems like x ethnicity, should be chucked, IMO. > Agreed, they're ill-defined in the first place, and even worse over time. Christianity > Islam > Irreligious/Atheism > Hinduism > Folk religion/Deism > Buddhism > Shinto > Sikhism > Judaism > Bah=E1'=ED Faith > Jainism > See my other thread, I think that universally accepted definitions of the dogma and/or descriptions of the practice should be used to coin meaningful gismu, because if we treat these 'belief systems' as names, they are also liable to lose meaning over time. > I think the "Folk religion" one is especially important, as it would > provide a good way for people to describe their beliefs. Actually, maybe > there should be two gismu: one for "(world?) religion X" and one for > "native religion of X people." We would have to think about Shinto, thou= gh, > since Shinto is basically the native religion of the Japanese people, so = it > might not need it's own fi'uvla, but rather a conventionalized cmene....? > Try and think of a tanru/lujvo, translate it's meaning and stick a 'la' in front of it, or just use the original japanese term if it needs more contex= t =3Dp. > >> 1. >> 2. Geography? Who's version? >> Do we stop at Australia or Greenland? To be thorough, I would think >> this should be left to some earth experts to decide just which land m= asses, >> tectonic plates, bodies of water, air masses and climactic systems wo= uld be >> useful to name. On a tangent, how about constellations or a complete >> periodic table of elements? Also, I don't see any way to come up with >> 'autonymic' terms for such natural entities, maybe they are better of= f with >> meaningful lujvo instead. >> >> I am not a geologist/geographer/etc., but my impression was that the ide= a > of the seven standard continents was pretty widely excepted. Oh, but I s= ee > now that that seems to be largely by convention. In looking at the map o= f > the major tectonic plates, though, ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Plates_tect2_en.svg), making the fi'uvl= a > technically mean "a land mass on X plate" might be useful... > Right, any earth scientists in the mailing list? --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016362837fa23dbc404830eadec Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at= 00:52, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0if we could do somethi= ng that could make these recognizable as the names of countries/languages/e= tc.? =A0Like, say, the first consonant is always /s/? =A0Or is that not wor= th it...?
=A0

If we want a den= se and obvious indicator, we can just use { gugde + <ISO 3166-1-alpha-2 code> }=A0
No, I'm serious.
<= br>
Again, I agree, but--why do bigger language= s get "real" words, and others only "deserve" cmene (re= gardless, we should probably get the "deserve" out of the proposa= l :p)? =A0What about in a few hundred years, when the dominant languages mi= ght be totally different, and this will seem really weird?=A0
I think this is probably the right solution, with the ca= veat that what gets fi'uvla needs to be revised occasionally (say, ever= y 100-150 years). Often that revision would probably not change much, but i= t might at some stages.

I figure leave the standards up= to ISO, as new languages warrant official recognition as new distinct form= s, these can change.

One other issue with both language and coun= try names--are we using the English form to get the fi'uvla, or the nat= ive term? =A0That is, is the fi'uvla for "Finland/Finnish" de= rived from "Finland" or from "Suomi?" =A0I'd vote t= he second, as it introduces less bias. =A0And, with languages, should the l= anguage "English" be demonstrably related to "England,"= or should it (could it?) be different?

Right. Autonymic =3D in its own lang= uage. So if everyone uses something that sounds like 'English' to r= efer to a language, thats what we mimic with the cmene/fu'ivla=A0

<= div>Yeah, anything with "ethnicity," except as a gismu that says = something reflects/seems like x ethnicity, should be chucked, IMO.

Agreed, they're ill-defined in t= he first place, and even worse over time.

Christianity
Islam
Irreligious/Atheism
Hinduism
Folk religion/Deism=
Buddhism
Shinto
Sikhism
Ju= daism
Bah=E1'=ED Faith
Jainism

See my other thread, I think that universally accepted = definitions of the dogma and/or descriptions of the practice should be used= to coin meaningful gismu, because if we treat these 'belief systems= 9; as names, they are also liable to lose meaning over time.
=A0
I think the "Folk religion" one is especially important, = as it would provide a good way for people to describe their beliefs. =A0Act= ually, maybe there should be two gismu: =A0one for "(world?) religion = X" and one for "native religion of X people." =A0We would ha= ve to think about Shinto, though, since Shinto is basically the native reli= gion of the Japanese people, so it might not need it's own fi'uvla,= but rather a conventionalized cmene....?

Try and think of a tanru/lujvo= , translate it's meaning and stick a 'la' in front of it, or ju= st use the original japanese term if it needs more context =3Dp.=A0

  2. Geography? Who's version?
    Do we stop at Australia or G= reenland?=A0To be thorough, I would think this should be left to some earth= experts to decide just which land masses, tectonic plates, bodies of water= , air masses and climactic systems would be useful to name. On a tangent, h= ow about constellations or a complete periodic table of elements? Also, I d= on't see any way to come up with 'autonymic' terms for such nat= ural entities, maybe they are better off with meaningful lujvo instead.
I am not a= geologist/geographer/etc., but my impression was that the idea of the seve= n standard continents was pretty widely excepted. =A0Oh, but I see now that= that seems to be largely by convention. =A0In looking at the map of the ma= jor tectonic plates, though, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pl= ates_tect2_en.svg), making the fi'uvla technically mean "a lan= d mass on X plate" might be useful...

Right, any earth scientists in the m= ailing list?

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