From 31U6zSw8JBiMLHBG9DK.DUDQRNMFL9HK.BNLKNIA9MFNNFKDFQNTOR.BNL@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 06:32:26 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f155.google.com ([209.85.210.155]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <31U6zSw8JBiMLHBG9DK.DUDQRNMFL9HK.BNLKNIA9MFNNFKDFQNTOR.BNL@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nwy1s-0003Au-MY for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 06:32:25 -0700 Received: by mail-yx0-f155.google.com with SMTP id 27sf82229yxe.26 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 06:32:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:mime-version :subject:from:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KAJpIT7lPcDpXOqIyjtzd6JEE5myO39f6ef+pjZq9bE=; b=LOhpmAuygQBMZ5xyNo58+AEdcdqwjlnlPlOi6C61xQcY5znpKllV4cdj/hZlyrTUJS RQQOEhBS7RXeJb/3zW43GeV+RASM5oo4iZHeZK4rYZt+8wL3YS/bLTo3pn1akX+2dT4S RAPclBOwK8J9fl9yxykt8C4NXduUS1KeudM9c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=u4YIY0EuaYxeEMqjr2dLdiySTKs+SuTRMBlmOLKCrkjj8grBEBVU072vG46ks1Xlov lvKxIUAOMngfVRFdMWoGLUGMnvH/MPcFOSeSce6JubLBGd2/DjsRJzRyhRf8gshql8HN 2O0ynlEJ/PVhzAuDq5sDUxC9UX9sLwwGMY44A= Received: by 10.150.174.18 with SMTP id w18mr394455ybe.24.1270042325686; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 06:32:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.6.87 with SMTP id 23ls98442bky.0.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 06:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.21.7 with SMTP id h7mr78564bkb.27.1270042323466; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 06:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.21.7 with SMTP id h7mr78563bkb.27.1270042323423; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 06:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f43.google.com (mail-ww0-f43.google.com [74.125.82.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id h3si485773bke.4.2010.03.31.06.32.02; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 06:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.43; Received: by mail-ww0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 26so62825wwf.16 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 06:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.86.82 with SMTP id v60mr318214wee.180.1270042322120; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 06:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (murrisk2.westnet.ie [88.81.100.235]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g11sm19049824gve.18.2010.03.31.06.32.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 31 Mar 2010 06:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Michael Everson In-Reply-To: <79614.64421.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:32:00 +0100 Message-Id: <072F7F4E-1EB1-4BB5-B92D-7DDC4C43600B@gmail.com> References: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <5715b9301003291146h66475c74off6625befee8fdf5@mail.gmail.com> <8EE07369-765A-49AB-AEC4-1DEC1A904C37@gmail.com> <20100330090253.GG3000@nvg.org> <59C6A282-0F28-4016-98C7-907FBD3C4379@gmail.com> <23298cb41003300332u6bde63fdk9f8b819fff7bf2ce@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003300803m6caec9f7y7a66b3bf9b71009b@mail.gmail.com> <32A2435D-5119-409E-8CAD-E5F899C5AAF1@mac.com> <9E58473C-A8AC-464F-826D-E44470D7F15F@gmail.com> <79614.64421.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=michael.everson@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: michael.everson@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/f7e397b4104582b5 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 30 Mar 2010, at 21:06, John E Clifford wrote: > Now that the petty bickering has died down a little and it seems likely t= hat a version of Alice in Lojban will appear, let me comment on the samples= before us. >=20 > 1. Note please that '(,)i' does not mark the beginning of a new *sentenc= e* but of a new *bridi*, which may or may not be the same thing. In partic= ular, ijeks mark not new sentences but new clauses of a compound or complex= sentence. So they should have neither a punctuation period before them no= t a capital letter. Whether they should have a comma or a semi or full col= on, I am less sure -- Victorian conventions were very different from moder= n ones, for example (and British from American throughout). I would tend to use a semicolon rather than a Victorian colon since the mod= ern reader has expectations of a difference between both. Carroll tends to = use the colon more, but it's difficult for a modern editor to work out his = reasons for preferring it to semicolon or full stop.=20 But the distinction you note is quite reasonable.=20 > More or less consequent on that, the repeated capitalized 'I' is dist= racting at best, muddling at worst, so I would capitalize the next word. This would inevitably lead the Latin-typograpically-savvy reader to link th= e "i" with the previous bridi rather than to consider it the beginning of a= new bridi. And in the case of this book, would simply shift the "distracti= on" burden of "I lu" to "i Lu". > But I would run the ijeks and similar items as single words, in keepi= ng with their unitary function in the grammar (and no following capital). Ah, you and Jorge differ here, since he suggested splitting them. > 2. Unless things have changed a lot, the occurrence of ',' is almost alwa= ys predictable. The use in texts was originally an aid to learning, to rem= ind people to take a breath (or break). Somehow, it stuck and is now being= touted as "standard orthography". Are the only pictures allowed in Lojban= books to be those of Dick, Jane, Spot, and Fluffy? In this text the only occurrence of comma is in the name "la meri,An". I wo= nder of "la Meri An" is sufficient, unless stress must be marked as "la Mer= i =C3=81n".=20 > But there are some places where a pause is not so obvious, mainly IIR= C at the ends of names. To be sure, if the name is capitalized, then this = is predictable as well, even if the name is a purely Lojban phrase. In sh= ort, a dotless text would be quite adequate and much nicer looking. I was wondering if the middle dot (a dot at the height of the top dot of a = colon) would not be a nice way of indicating that. In standard style (no ca= sing):=20 La Djan=C2=B7 nanmu =C2=B7ije la Djeimyz=C2=B7 ninmu. Of course this suggests using middle dot as a full stop: la djan. nanmu .ije la djeimyz. ninmu=C2=B7 though that is a break from traditional punctuation.=20 But the source text is undotted and it doesn't seem very feasible to dot it= . > I think punctuation periods are a bad idea, even when they would mark the= eventual end of a long complex or compound sentence, but in that place I w= ould not mind them much, just not after every sentence ('i', which is much = bigger than '.', is quite adequate. Well, Georgian marks the ends of paragraphs with a right-pointing triangle = of dots, thus =E1=83=BB > 3. As for capitalizing words that are not cmene but Lojban phrases, the = easiest generally satisfactory way would seem to be to convert all the 'lo'= s (but surely they all should have been 'le's) to 'la's. This does seem to be satisfactory, if the grammar allows it. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.