From 3DluzSwoJBmgQGROpVaZXGeGNUU.IUSRUPHGTMUUMRKMXUaVY.IUS@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 07:24:41 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3DluzSwoJBmgQGROpVaZXGeGNUU.IUSRUPHGTMUUMRKMXUaVY.IUS@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwyqR-0002PA-VP for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:24:40 -0700 Received: by vws1 with SMTP id 1sf185276vws.16 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:24:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=c3+3r5QquRb20/lcJdsKwLV7yvclDxO0ECRK8I8wAWE=; b=MpmWjKkvTofWjW2i5vKG0B3GFE+oSLmaTCXNoSPGNgY2/C8vYPZHuYdzwYMZia4k3W cegEBByoRCZA2qdDqDF8ORplXAIl+R/0LV+osK4JSCrEYC7L+YkgnkqsN6QwxegP0DeH 48DG1A2pK/W8UDsoBWyrihq7yBod1GkydwAtM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=z33Fpqln4otL58SKPiije9WNF1v19E0AC8fYuVPNqPTcCtiH4VuPM3NuPaOi9bZBK6 ndWNrsyBg54orpA29FjJHJ1VWsEfeMsHsbX//XPH9QZYmI4pQ0RNQVikm8wVFZLFsCRG KpLyNOUtTXjztzhLlSp/kSlqesX2uVq7s6c6U= Received: by 10.220.122.78 with SMTP id k14mr346421vcr.10.1270045454999; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:24:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.68.217 with SMTP id w25ls119162vci.1.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.8 with SMTP id g8mr853197vcy.1.1270045453899; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.8 with SMTP id g8mr853196vcy.1.1270045453827; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.119]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 34si16406772vws.3.2010.03.31.07.24.12; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.119; Received: (qmail 96000 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Mar 2010 14:24:12 -0000 Message-ID: <264113.93778.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: AC1KcrUVM1k3hacKo_nfQeHj72Cjvw8RMuXGFF9.pEBPJoV w88Gqz6JckamPbfVIDrfsdEOEgxKsSBmMpROz4.y7egKJypncB7W22_o2yGt yzBcO2qg7qmswCORkfaihfT3di9FieQ7GcElonJkgn88ThNYK2CqFxDVKIgS ymSwjEc28HfI6GzJF.nmJWrs9yc4Sw5jHRnxcOZd5L6ue8oXIay6WeoF0q3B fzKGCDl1p5oGXyJu.XkD3b.K4wB11mYPl.EZmUCiAqP5dgA_f7ZT3nIy.0ZT bX._OCazcERtb9K59j6HXwhg_OpEnEpbvMIX0TMJoodYMZsjdmOxzNfDPO0N n6e2bPYWj6RhqeIN.yCooW9C5iTBjgRtiqFxA Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:24:06 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/324.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <59C6A282-0F28-4016-98C7-907FBD3C4379@gmail.com> <23298cb41003300332u6bde63fdk9f8b819fff7bf2ce@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003300803m6caec9f7y7a66b3bf9b71009b@mail.gmail.com> <32A2435D-5119-409E-8CAD-E5F899C5AAF1@mac.com> <9E58473C-A8AC-464F-826D-E44470D7F15F@gmail.com> <79614.64421.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <072F7F4E-1EB1-4BB5-B92D-7DDC4C43600B@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:24:06 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/52d1ff56c36d66a6 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry about the typo (more eyesight problems); I did mean '.' (careful chec= k). =20 What I was suggesting about 'la' and 'lo' was that, for names which are Loj= ban predicates, introduce with 'lo' and shift immediately to 'la'. The cap= italization is up for grabs, though I see no harm in following Dodgson here= in capitalizing a common noun. Is it true that 'blabi ractu' etc. have no required pause? I would think t= hat was where those pauses (which are largely superfluous) would actually b= e necessary -- to keep the name from fading into the predicate (but I suppo= se 'cu' is required in any case). ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 9:05:34 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:32 AM, Michael Everson wrote: > On 30 Mar 2010, at 21:06, John E Clifford wrote: > >> 2. Unless things have changed a lot, the occurrence of ',' is almost alw= ays predictable. The use in texts was originally an aid to learning, to re= mind people to take a breath (or break). Somehow, it stuck and is now bein= g touted as "standard orthography". Are the only pictures allowed in Lojba= n books to be those of Dick, Jane, Spot, and Fluffy? > > In this text the only occurrence of comma is in the name "la meri,An". I = wonder of "la Meri An" is sufficient, unless stress must be marked as "la M= eri =C1n". I suspect John's ',' was a typo for '.'. The occurence of the period is the one that is fully predictable, the occurrence of the comma is fully unpredictable, and has no phonemic significance (indeed it is not even clear why the comma is part of the alphabet at all, since it doesn't represent any phoneme). Also, it is the period, not the comma that serves "to remind people to take a breath (or break)", the comma serves to remind NOT to take a breath or break, even though there is a syllable boundary. "la Meri An" doesn't work, because "meri" is the cmavo string "me ri", not a cmevla. I would suggest "la meri=E1n" or "la Meri=E1n", or if three syllables is a must, then "la merii=E1n" or "la Merii=E1n". >> But there are some places where a pause is not so obvious, mainly II= RC at the ends of names. To be sure, if the name is capitalized, then this= is predictable as well, even if the name is a purely Lojban phrase. In s= hort, a dotless text would be quite adequate and much nicer looking. The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only words that end in a consonant. Names that do not use cmevla do not require a pause. >> 3. As for capitalizing words that are not cmene but Lojban phrases, the= easiest generally satisfactory way would seem to be to convert all the 'lo= 's (but surely they all should have been 'le's) to 'la's. > > This does seem to be satisfactory, if the grammar allows it. As I said, using "la" for: ...when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her... is at the very least semantically odd. (Syntactically, it is fine.) mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.