From 3U1yzSwsJBq4ZiYSOPSfUSbUaOWZ.QcaZcXPObUccUZSUfcidg.Qca@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 07:30:14 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3U1yzSwsJBq4ZiYSOPSfUSbUaOWZ.QcaZcXPObUccUZSUfcidg.Qca@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nwyvg-0005HK-Oj for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:30:14 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf125064ywh.28 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:29:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=l7Xu412XbtKLv5Wp8VKYiZ5/SZlmjkGwra1tMmI9PN8=; b=mEl49cuTLPLiq4Cg022YigXOPPWETsDwYwfXT9AFegtEl310S+0znnlwMutqDIe0E8 YETsH2tntCGx0yUjlHbI+Y1rNkGqW+ufWU8r4sq51Iz13+tWGc7BuVwZRG4743ifqazQ 0wrQoC44dyEj47DAxQaqdh+mOUZEP38b8t8JE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=N/5kya4aiWgQdv+AS2P2LPcsGNmQW0Gz4Vm+xP/W83KxT/dQSijfhwL2rOmx4fHbzH wGhMpZY6Vj9rJVFMHtiXVtqvUChaf2iiaBcIsMx89Z7+i6PZpDuuWNDzwwd5pmE/+CpL x57AMPNjkwBs/G8qnNTNwYwD6tSOzsns8K7b8= Received: by 10.91.182.17 with SMTP id j17mr20504agp.31.1270045779671; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:29:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.204.223 with SMTP id fn31ls144306ibb.1.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.168.197 with SMTP id v5mr596442iby.27.1270045777550; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.168.197 with SMTP id v5mr596441iby.27.1270045777512; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f53.google.com (mail-vw0-f53.google.com [209.85.212.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si1011487iwn.14.2010.03.31.07.29.36; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.53; Received: by mail-vw0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 1so66191vws.40 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:29:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.97.206 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:29:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2E5ED6BC-24B5-4007-9335-0AFE76A95D93@gmail.com> References: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003300803m6caec9f7y7a66b3bf9b71009b@mail.gmail.com> <32A2435D-5119-409E-8CAD-E5F899C5AAF1@mac.com> <9E58473C-A8AC-464F-826D-E44470D7F15F@gmail.com> <79614.64421.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <072F7F4E-1EB1-4BB5-B92D-7DDC4C43600B@gmail.com> <2E5ED6BC-24B5-4007-9335-0AFE76A95D93@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:29:33 -0400 Received: by 10.220.128.30 with SMTP id i30mr282257vcs.148.1270045776131; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/f573ea278f49d674 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e1ece355b670048319937c --001636e1ece355b670048319937c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only words that end in a consonant. > Then the dot is pretty much redundant, if it's so predictable? No, it's all the more necessary in order to keep the ending consonant from running into the following word. One of the really cool things about lojba= n for me is that it is possible (if highly inadvisable) to remove all whitespace and still be able to parse the text unambiguously. But, that's not possible if there is no mandatory pause after a cmevla (because it *doe= s * end in a consonant). On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Michael Everson wrote: > On 31 Mar 2010, at 15:05, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > > > I suspect John's ',' was a typo for '.'. > > Ah. > > > The occurence of the period is the one that is fully predictable, the > occurrence of the comma is fully unpredictable, and has no phonemic > significance (indeed it is not even clear why the comma is part of the > alphabet at all, since it doesn't represent any phoneme). Also, it is the > period, not the comma that serves "to remind people to take a breath (or > break)", the comma serves to remind NOT to take a breath or break, even > though there is a syllable boundary. > > > > "la Meri An" doesn't work, because "meri" is the cmavo string "me ri", > > not a cmevla. > > Ah, yes, wouldn't it have to be "la Meris An"? > > > I would suggest "la meri=E1n" or "la Meri=E1n", or if three syllables i= s a > > must, then "la merii=E1n" or "la Merii=E1n". > > It's trisyllabic certainly. I guess "la Meri,=C1n" or "la Merii=E1n" are = it. > > >>> But there are some places where a pause is not so obvious, mainly IIR= C > at the ends of names. To be sure, if the name is capitalized, then this = is > predictable as well, even if the name is a purely Lojban phrase. In sho= rt, > a dotless text would be quite adequate and much nicer looking. > > > > The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only words > that end in a consonant. > > Then the dot is pretty much redundant, if it's so predictable? > > > Names that do not use cmevla do not require a pause. > > > > As I said, using "la" for: > > > > ...when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her... > > > > is at the very least semantically odd. (Syntactically, it is fine.) > > Yes, you were rigth about that one, as I pointed out the French do the > same. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636e1ece355b670048319937c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> The pause after cmevla is = fully predictable, as they are the only words that end in a consonant.

> Th= en the dot is pretty much redundant, if it's so predictable?

No, it's all the more necessary in order to keep the en= ding consonant from running into the following word. =A0One of the really c= ool things about lojban for me is that it is possible (if highly inadvisabl= e) to remove all whitespace and still be able to parse the text unambiguous= ly. =A0But, that's not possible if there is no mandatory pause after a = cmevla (because it does=A0end in a consonant).

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Micha= el Everson <michael.everson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 31 Mar 2010, at 15:05, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:

> I suspect John's ',' was a typo for '.'.

Ah.

> The occurence of the period is the one that is fully predictable, the = occurrence of the comma is fully unpredictable, and has no phonemic signifi= cance (indeed it is not even clear why the comma is part of the alphabet at= all, since it doesn't represent any phoneme). Also, it is the period, = not the comma that serves "to remind people to take a breath (or break= )", the comma serves to remind NOT to take a breath or break, even tho= ugh there is a syllable boundary.
>
> "la Meri An" doesn't work, because "meri" is t= he cmavo string "me ri",
> not a cmevla.

Ah, yes, wouldn't it have to be "la Meris An"?

> I would suggest "la meri=E1n" or "la Meri=E1n", or= if three syllables is a
> must, then "la merii=E1n" or "la Merii=E1n".

It's trisyllabic certainly. I guess "la Meri,=C1n" or &= quot;la Merii=E1n" are it.

>>> But there are some places where a pause is not so obvious, mai= nly IIRC at the ends of names. =A0To be sure, if the name is capitalized, t= hen this is predictable =A0as well, even if the name is a purely Lojban phr= ase. =A0In short, a dotless text would be quite adequate and much nicer loo= king.
>
> The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only word= s that end in a consonant.

Then the dot is pretty much redundant, if it's so predictable?

> Names that do not use cmevla do not require a pause.
>
> As I said, using "la" for:
>
> =A0 =A0...when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her= ...
>
> is at the very least semantically odd. (Syntactically, it is fine.)
Yes, you were rigth about that one, as I pointed out the French do th= e same.


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