From 3EGGzSwwJBnAOROaUOffWUigUaOWZ.QcaZcXPObUccUZSUfcidg.Qca@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 07:50:23 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f148.google.com ([209.85.221.148]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3EGGzSwwJBnAOROaUOffWUigUaOWZ.QcaZcXPObUccUZSUfcidg.Qca@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NwzFH-0004Vv-TX for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:50:22 -0700 Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12sf323423qyk.1 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:50:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=+6coKSjS4ndWaMnoOcb1vN/iqoGLQyPZ86Q5a69woSk=; b=C95iY3U6FpzWtU3/FRlofJh5VA+DBekM0+WL6qn6yt8qPveOR8z2rct5wR1+XM0vSY X4EG/CUGdUmLgFfnqWC+q78itscXpMf4GE6OHvxxgKPfPL3kWDfwG7g9zIEXyAbIHXcp zhcso1yJ2uKbEon0q2k+zbIKYd4beJb1KBMlE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=54PwD2LUG73jM+TrbhhbO3/03uuQ+Hza8qrg3GHjb3F7kTJCGb6cEWWTbScsKyGn6A VueMn5m/FbphUBBJ4U78txt27L0qOO9fMRZ737zEKzb5ZQ8ny3l0QU4C8mGMSm5ER9Qe EXmaQ3mNvKq1jodvlynDX7cwVAL3OHkJ+tgd0= Received: by 10.229.43.209 with SMTP id x17mr206892qce.25.1270046992227; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:49:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.131.101 with SMTP id w37ls118547qcs.0.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.38.69 with SMTP id a5mr535496qce.3.1270046990374; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.38.69 with SMTP id a5mr535495qce.3.1270046990302; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f43.google.com (mail-vw0-f43.google.com [209.85.212.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si680198qyk.1.2010.03.31.07.49.49; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamgarrigus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.43; Received: by vws6 with SMTP id 6so75332vws.16 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:49:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.74.136 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:49:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003300803m6caec9f7y7a66b3bf9b71009b@mail.gmail.com> <32A2435D-5119-409E-8CAD-E5F899C5AAF1@mac.com> <9E58473C-A8AC-464F-826D-E44470D7F15F@gmail.com> <79614.64421.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <072F7F4E-1EB1-4BB5-B92D-7DDC4C43600B@gmail.com> <2E5ED6BC-24B5-4007-9335-0AFE76A95D93@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:49:48 -0400 Received: by 10.220.60.205 with SMTP id q13mr1116628vch.188.1270046988982; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of adamgarrigus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamgarrigus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: adamgarrigus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/43c43c49f4cdfe01 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e8878a5a05abb048319db52 --e0cb4e8878a5a05abb048319db52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Luke Bergen wrote= : > >> The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only word= s > that end in a consonant. > > > Then the dot is pretty much redundant, if it's so predictable? > > No, it's all the more necessary in order to keep the ending consonant fro= m > running into the following word. One of the really cool things about loj= ban > for me is that it is possible (if highly inadvisable) to remove all > whitespace and still be able to parse the text unambiguously. But, that'= s > not possible if there is no mandatory pause after a cmevla (because it * > does* end in a consonant). > But in the context of this discussion, spaces are going to be included in such a way that the dot is always redundant. The source text, e.g., has enough spaces to make the dot wholly redundant (IIRC; I can't access it now for some reason). mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Michael Everson < > michael.everson@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 31 Mar 2010, at 15:05, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: >> >> > I suspect John's ',' was a typo for '.'. >> >> Ah. >> >> > The occurence of the period is the one that is fully predictable, the >> occurrence of the comma is fully unpredictable, and has no phonemic >> significance (indeed it is not even clear why the comma is part of the >> alphabet at all, since it doesn't represent any phoneme). Also, it is th= e >> period, not the comma that serves "to remind people to take a breath (or >> break)", the comma serves to remind NOT to take a breath or break, even >> though there is a syllable boundary. >> > >> > "la Meri An" doesn't work, because "meri" is the cmavo string "me ri", >> > not a cmevla. >> >> Ah, yes, wouldn't it have to be "la Meris An"? >> >> > I would suggest "la meri=E1n" or "la Meri=E1n", or if three syllables = is a >> > must, then "la merii=E1n" or "la Merii=E1n". >> >> It's trisyllabic certainly. I guess "la Meri,=C1n" or "la Merii=E1n" are= it. >> >> >>> But there are some places where a pause is not so obvious, mainly II= RC >> at the ends of names. To be sure, if the name is capitalized, then this= is >> predictable as well, even if the name is a purely Lojban phrase. In sh= ort, >> a dotless text would be quite adequate and much nicer looking. >> > >> > The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only word= s >> that end in a consonant. >> >> Then the dot is pretty much redundant, if it's so predictable? >> >> > Names that do not use cmevla do not require a pause. >> > >> > As I said, using "la" for: >> > >> > ...when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her... >> > >> > is at the very least semantically odd. (Syntactically, it is fine.) >> >> Yes, you were rigth about that one, as I pointed out the French do the >> same. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --e0cb4e8878a5a05abb048319db52 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrot= e:
>> The= pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only words that e= nd in a consonant.

> Then the dot is pretty much r= edundant, if it's so predictable?

No, i= t's all the more necessary in order to keep the ending consonant from r= unning into the following word. =A0One of the really cool things about lojb= an for me is that it is possible (if highly inadvisable) to remove all whit= espace and still be able to parse the text unambiguously. =A0But, that'= s not possible if there is no mandatory pause after a cmevla (because it does=A0end in a consonant).

But in the context of this discussion, spaces are goi= ng to be included in such a way that the dot is always redundant. The sourc= e text, e.g., has enough spaces to make the dot wholly redundant (IIRC; I c= an't access it now for some reason).

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

=A0
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Michael Everson <<= a href=3D"mailto:michael.everson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">michael.evers= on@gmail.com> wrote:
On 31 Mar 2010, at 15:05, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:

> I suspect John's ',' was a typo for '.'.

Ah.

> The occurence of the period is the one that is fully predictable, the = occurrence of the comma is fully unpredictable, and has no phonemic signifi= cance (indeed it is not even clear why the comma is part of the alphabet at= all, since it doesn't represent any phoneme). Also, it is the period, = not the comma that serves "to remind people to take a breath (or break= )", the comma serves to remind NOT to take a breath or break, even tho= ugh there is a syllable boundary.
>
> "la Meri An" doesn't work, because "meri" is t= he cmavo string "me ri",
> not a cmevla.

Ah, yes, wouldn't it have to be "la Meris An"?

> I would suggest "la meri=E1n" or "la Meri=E1n", or= if three syllables is a
> must, then "la merii=E1n" or "la Merii=E1n".

It's trisyllabic certainly. I guess "la Meri,=C1n" or &= quot;la Merii=E1n" are it.

>>> But there are some places where a pause is not so obvious, mai= nly IIRC at the ends of names. =A0To be sure, if the name is capitalized, t= hen this is predictable =A0as well, even if the name is a purely Lojban phr= ase. =A0In short, a dotless text would be quite adequate and much nicer loo= king.
>
> The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only word= s that end in a consonant.

Then the dot is pretty much redundant, if it's so predictable?

> Names that do not use cmevla do not require a pause.
>
> As I said, using "la" for:
>
> =A0 =A0...when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her= ...
>
> is at the very least semantically odd. (Syntactically, it is fine.)
Yes, you were rigth about that one, as I pointed out the French do th= e same.


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=

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