From 3c2uzSwsJBt0KTJD9ADQFDMFL9HK.BNLKNIA9MFNNFKDFQNTOR.BNL@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 08:34:38 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f148.google.com ([209.85.221.148]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3c2uzSwsJBt0KTJD9ADQFDMFL9HK.BNLKNIA9MFNNFKDFQNTOR.BNL@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nwzw8-0007gw-6E for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:34:38 -0700 Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12sf361941qyk.1 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:34:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=R5x4b251t1aHjlUNbJh/ALg3aPrV0G9lKNKWn7I4JAU=; b=lnc2lAnPKpXoZyLqFyfJ/v6I2H9WavtwwZgZa/am8zxmysSsYD0A44HwTGPKYop4NO 2WdGpztfe1T4AD0iL8G0VWBCgJUNURgVw9ppaRk7sJsZpjIgVl7dYYB9LEYe2r0Pz3V9 GHCSskQtsnAZFZas9zrmMv65wpse6hiaOHkvU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=M4huLEm0jsgGnSE2qu2gCNCzy+3knfPs1Nv1gRl4AwwyJ4Vf0EteKqjNc6rcZherDa T4nNYBddICa2YLYnDf2D9WPu1E+t33Plk218OmIwepWPXi9meVrKpJXYt6oD1BDWLsmT tdcZhAK4dejjGVXUXhaz3Er8QRqxnUjDOLicM= Received: by 10.224.69.207 with SMTP id a15mr333686qaj.26.1270049651149; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:34:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.109.133 with SMTP id j5ls112408qap.0.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.87.67 with SMTP id v3mr101466qal.27.1270049649840; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.87.67 with SMTP id v3mr101465qal.27.1270049649775; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f49.google.com (mail-vw0-f49.google.com [209.85.212.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si688724qyk.5.2010.03.31.08.34.08; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.49; Received: by vws16 with SMTP id 16so114355vws.36 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:34:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.97.206 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:34:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <32A2435D-5119-409E-8CAD-E5F899C5AAF1@mac.com> <9E58473C-A8AC-464F-826D-E44470D7F15F@gmail.com> <79614.64421.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <072F7F4E-1EB1-4BB5-B92D-7DDC4C43600B@gmail.com> <2E5ED6BC-24B5-4007-9335-0AFE76A95D93@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:34:08 -0400 Received: by 10.220.107.167 with SMTP id b39mr1311331vcp.136.1270049648516; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/21081befa8ad1113 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f8fe45025a24504831a7a33 --00c09f8fe45025a24504831a7a33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable True. Strictly speaking the {.} is completely un-necessary in written text since spaces can always been seen in text.... but I still prefer to see {broda .i brode} over {broda i brode} and {la .alis.} over {la alis}. It just grabs my eye better. On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:49 AM, komfo,amonan wrote= : > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Luke Bergen wrot= e: > >> >> The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only wor= ds >> that end in a consonant. >> >> > Then the dot is pretty much redundant, if it's so predictable? >> >> No, it's all the more necessary in order to keep the ending consonant fr= om >> running into the following word. One of the really cool things about lo= jban >> for me is that it is possible (if highly inadvisable) to remove all >> whitespace and still be able to parse the text unambiguously. But, that= 's >> not possible if there is no mandatory pause after a cmevla (because it * >> does* end in a consonant). >> > > But in the context of this discussion, spaces are going to be included in > such a way that the dot is always redundant. The source text, e.g., has > enough spaces to make the dot wholly redundant (IIRC; I can't access it n= ow > for some reason). > > mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan > > > >> On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Michael Everson < >> michael.everson@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On 31 Mar 2010, at 15:05, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: >>> >>> > I suspect John's ',' was a typo for '.'. >>> >>> Ah. >>> >>> > The occurence of the period is the one that is fully predictable, the >>> occurrence of the comma is fully unpredictable, and has no phonemic >>> significance (indeed it is not even clear why the comma is part of the >>> alphabet at all, since it doesn't represent any phoneme). Also, it is t= he >>> period, not the comma that serves "to remind people to take a breath (o= r >>> break)", the comma serves to remind NOT to take a breath or break, even >>> though there is a syllable boundary. >>> > >>> > "la Meri An" doesn't work, because "meri" is the cmavo string "me ri"= , >>> > not a cmevla. >>> >>> Ah, yes, wouldn't it have to be "la Meris An"? >>> >>> > I would suggest "la meri=E1n" or "la Meri=E1n", or if three syllables= is a >>> > must, then "la merii=E1n" or "la Merii=E1n". >>> >>> It's trisyllabic certainly. I guess "la Meri,=C1n" or "la Merii=E1n" ar= e it. >>> >>> >>> But there are some places where a pause is not so obvious, mainly >>> IIRC at the ends of names. To be sure, if the name is capitalized, the= n >>> this is predictable as well, even if the name is a purely Lojban phras= e. >>> In short, a dotless text would be quite adequate and much nicer lookin= g. >>> > >>> > The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only wor= ds >>> that end in a consonant. >>> >>> Then the dot is pretty much redundant, if it's so predictable? >>> >>> > Names that do not use cmevla do not require a pause. >>> > >>> > As I said, using "la" for: >>> > >>> > ...when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her... >>> > >>> > is at the very least semantically odd. (Syntactically, it is fine.) >>> >>> Yes, you were rigth about that one, as I pointed out the French do the >>> same. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00c09f8fe45025a24504831a7a33 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable True. =A0Strictly speaking the {.} is completely un-necessary in written te= xt since spaces can always been seen in text.... but I still prefer to see = {broda .i brode} over {broda i brode} and {la .alis.} over {la alis}. =A0It= just grabs my eye better. =A0

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:49 AM, komfo,amon= an <komfoamon= an@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Luke Bergen <luk= eabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The pause after cmevla= is fully predictable, as they are the only words that end in a consonant.<= br>
> Then the dot is pretty much r= edundant, if it's so predictable?

No, i= t's all the more necessary in order to keep the ending consonant from r= unning into the following word. =A0One of the really cool things about lojb= an for me is that it is possible (if highly inadvisable) to remove all whit= espace and still be able to parse the text unambiguously. =A0But, that'= s not possible if there is no mandatory pause after a cmevla (because it does=A0end in a consonant).

But in the context of this discussion, spaces a= re going to be included in such a way that the dot is always redundant. The= source text, e.g., has enough spaces to make the dot wholly redundant (IIR= C; I can't access it now for some reason).

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

=A0
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Michael Everson <michael.everso= n@gmail.com> wrote:
On 31 Mar 2010, at 15:05, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:

> I suspect John's ',' was a typo for '.'.

Ah.

> The occurence of the period is the one that is fully predictable, the = occurrence of the comma is fully unpredictable, and has no phonemic signifi= cance (indeed it is not even clear why the comma is part of the alphabet at= all, since it doesn't represent any phoneme). Also, it is the period, = not the comma that serves "to remind people to take a breath (or break= )", the comma serves to remind NOT to take a breath or break, even tho= ugh there is a syllable boundary.
>
> "la Meri An" doesn't work, because "meri" is t= he cmavo string "me ri",
> not a cmevla.

Ah, yes, wouldn't it have to be "la Meris An"?

> I would suggest "la meri=E1n" or "la Meri=E1n", or= if three syllables is a
> must, then "la merii=E1n" or "la Merii=E1n".

It's trisyllabic certainly. I guess "la Meri,=C1n" or &= quot;la Merii=E1n" are it.

>>> But there are some places where a pause is not so obvious, mai= nly IIRC at the ends of names. =A0To be sure, if the name is capitalized, t= hen this is predictable =A0as well, even if the name is a purely Lojban phr= ase. =A0In short, a dotless text would be quite adequate and much nicer loo= king.
>
> The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only word= s that end in a consonant.

Then the dot is pretty much redundant, if it's so predictable?

> Names that do not use cmevla do not require a pause.
>
> As I said, using "la" for:
>
> =A0 =A0...when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her= ...
>
> is at the very least semantically odd. (Syntactically, it is fine.)
Yes, you were rigth about that one, as I pointed out the French do th= e same.


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=

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