From 3qXSzSwcJBh07R7HGNL9F3BE.5HFEHC43G9HH9E79KHNIL.5HF@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 09:13:58 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f143.google.com ([209.85.210.143]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3qXSzSwcJBh07R7HGNL9F3BE.5HFEHC43G9HH9E79KHNIL.5HF@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nx0YA-0002Na-9f for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:13:58 -0700 Received: by yxe7 with SMTP id 7sf259445yxe.32 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:13:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=SfgcFftBn23orWcA+vbW1BGZhK9d78ONyr+rVx6xHsg=; b=OEcEqtO+xb/eFmBnVuhGMaUFTKI+TnnmdAxUfakKZCtQKclbLuLg89VLoAPQ4vUM8U nUcor/jCHiQuu5kSPdy2xn/Zn4FXQUF3u1gosCmnO7fhrOuqSPyWFay1CZsaTD6EfvfJ 2FwupwWJnsKXbcOr5Lu2yWNuL4FjoAneBlw1I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=jE4qcgZzK4GwHi5W973ouCEXbEJxIWHI4iw3xZtrvSfq2iA7HXtj9HTF+V/W+Bs2yW kuaXeJcLhw8Egr//v70uxt+EInHhJyHH0Pcrd9rnKWUfXzTkfzBG7iGcrj+ly4qQ4Egm eqp5QNqSif6TLr4WvTvn8hopXx9D7mdAd03QA= Received: by 10.151.32.5 with SMTP id k5mr8870ybj.40.1270052009358; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:13:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls365501bkd.1.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.16.81 with SMTP id n17mr531542bka.11.1270052007635; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.16.81 with SMTP id n17mr531541bka.11.1270052007585; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com (mail-ww0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e24si7965595bke.2.2010.03.31.09.13.26; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.41; Received: by wwb18 with SMTP id 18so195594wwb.0 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:13:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.2.209 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:13:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <32A2435D-5119-409E-8CAD-E5F899C5AAF1@mac.com> <9E58473C-A8AC-464F-826D-E44470D7F15F@gmail.com> <79614.64421.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <072F7F4E-1EB1-4BB5-B92D-7DDC4C43600B@gmail.com> <2E5ED6BC-24B5-4007-9335-0AFE76A95D93@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:13:26 -0600 Received: by 10.216.89.142 with SMTP id c14mr723601wef.55.1270052006272; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/87bcf33d5bceb40d Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d7f0b0ae1f2d04831b06d9 --0016e6d7f0b0ae1f2d04831b06d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > True. Strictly speaking the {.} is completely un-necessary in written te= xt > since spaces can always been seen in text.... but I still prefer to see > {broda .i brode} over {broda i brode} and {la .alis.} over {la alis}. It > just grabs my eye better. Agreed, although I personally would write it {la.alis.} > > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:49 AM, komfo,amonan wro= te: > >> On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Luke Bergen wro= te: >> >>> >> The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only >>> words that end in a consonant. >>> >>> > Then the dot is pretty much redundant, if it's so predictable? >>> >>> No, it's all the more necessary in order to keep the ending consonant >>> from running into the following word. One of the really cool things ab= out >>> lojban for me is that it is possible (if highly inadvisable) to remove = all >>> whitespace and still be able to parse the text unambiguously. But, tha= t's >>> not possible if there is no mandatory pause after a cmevla (because it = * >>> does* end in a consonant). >>> >> >> But in the context of this discussion, spaces are going to be included i= n >> such a way that the dot is always redundant. The source text, e.g., has >> enough spaces to make the dot wholly redundant (IIRC; I can't access it = now >> for some reason). >> >> mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan >> >> >> >>> On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Michael Everson < >>> michael.everson@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On 31 Mar 2010, at 15:05, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: >>>> >>>> > I suspect John's ',' was a typo for '.'. >>>> >>>> Ah. >>>> >>>> > The occurence of the period is the one that is fully predictable, th= e >>>> occurrence of the comma is fully unpredictable, and has no phonemic >>>> significance (indeed it is not even clear why the comma is part of the >>>> alphabet at all, since it doesn't represent any phoneme). Also, it is = the >>>> period, not the comma that serves "to remind people to take a breath (= or >>>> break)", the comma serves to remind NOT to take a breath or break, eve= n >>>> though there is a syllable boundary. >>>> > >>>> > "la Meri An" doesn't work, because "meri" is the cmavo string "me ri= ", >>>> > not a cmevla. >>>> >>>> Ah, yes, wouldn't it have to be "la Meris An"? >>>> >>>> > I would suggest "la meri=E1n" or "la Meri=E1n", or if three syllable= s is a >>>> > must, then "la merii=E1n" or "la Merii=E1n". >>>> >>>> It's trisyllabic certainly. I guess "la Meri,=C1n" or "la Merii=E1n" a= re it. >>>> >>>> >>> But there are some places where a pause is not so obvious, mainly >>>> IIRC at the ends of names. To be sure, if the name is capitalized, th= en >>>> this is predictable as well, even if the name is a purely Lojban phra= se. >>>> In short, a dotless text would be quite adequate and much nicer looki= ng. >>>> > >>>> > The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the only >>>> words that end in a consonant. >>>> >>>> Then the dot is pretty much redundant, if it's so predictable? >>>> >>>> > Names that do not use cmevla do not require a pause. >>>> > >>>> > As I said, using "la" for: >>>> > >>>> > ...when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her..= . >>>> > >>>> > is at the very least semantically odd. (Syntactically, it is fine.) >>>> >>>> Yes, you were rigth about that one, as I pointed out the French do the >>>> same. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6d7f0b0ae1f2d04831b06d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gma= il.com> wrote:
True. =A0Strictly speaking the {= .} is completely un-necessary in written text since spaces can always been = seen in text.... but I still prefer to see {broda .i brode} over {broda i b= rode} and {la .alis.} over {la alis}. =A0It just grabs my eye better.=A0=A0=
=A0
Agreed, although I personally would write it {la.alis.}
=A0

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:49 AM, komfo,amonan <= span dir=3D"ltr"><komfoamonan@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.= com> wrote:
>> The pause after cmevla is fully predi= ctable, as they are the only words that end in a consonant.

<= /div>> Then the dot is pretty much redundant, if= it's so predictable?

No, it's all the more necessary in order to keep the ending conson= ant from running into the following word. =A0One of the really cool things = about lojban for me is that it is possible (if highly inadvisable) to remov= e all whitespace and still be able to parse the text unambiguously. =A0But,= that's not possible if there is no mandatory pause after a cmevla (bec= ause it does=A0end in a consonant).

But in the context of this discussion, spaces are going to be incl= uded in such a way that the dot is always redundant. The source text, e.g.,= has enough spaces to make the dot wholly redundant (IIRC; I can't acce= ss it now for some reason).

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

=A0
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Michael Everson &l= t;michael.ev= erson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 31 Mar 2010, at 15:05, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:

> I suspec= t John's ',' was a typo for '.'.

Ah.

> The occurence of the period is the one that is fully predicta= ble, the occurrence of the comma is fully unpredictable, and has no phonemi= c significance (indeed it is not even clear why the comma is part of the al= phabet at all, since it doesn't represent any phoneme). Also, it is the= period, not the comma that serves "to remind people to take a breath = (or break)", the comma serves to remind NOT to take a breath or break,= even though there is a syllable boundary.
>
> "la Meri An" doesn't work, because "meri&qu= ot; is the cmavo string "me ri",
> not a cmevla.

Ah, yes, wouldn't it have to be "la Meris An"?

> I would suggest "la meri=E1n" or "la Meri=E1n&= quot;, or if three syllables is a
> must, then "la merii=E1n&quo= t; or "la Merii=E1n".

It's trisyllabic certainly= . I guess "la Meri,=C1n" or "la Merii=E1n" are it.

>>> But there are some places where a pause is not so obv= ious, mainly IIRC at the ends of names. =A0To be sure, if the name is capit= alized, then this is predictable =A0as well, even if the name is a purely L= ojban phrase. =A0In short, a dotless text would be quite adequate and much = nicer looking.
>
> The pause after cmevla is fully predictable, as they are the o= nly words that end in a consonant.

Then the dot is pretty much= redundant, if it's so predictable?

> Names that do not use cmevla do not require a pause.
><= br>
> As I said, using "la" for:
>
> =A0 =A0...wh= en suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her...
>
&g= t; is at the very least semantically odd. (Syntactically, it is fine.)

Yes, you were rigth about that one, as I pointed out the French d= o the same.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to = the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send = email to lojba= n@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups= .com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups= .com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send e= mail to lojban= @googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--0016e6d7f0b0ae1f2d04831b06d9--