From 3fXizSwcJBvQauakjqociWeh.YkihkfXWjckkchacnkqlo.Yki@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 09:30:17 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f192.google.com ([209.85.217.192]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3fXizSwcJBvQauakjqociWeh.YkihkfXWjckkchacnkqlo.Yki@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nx0ny-0003X0-Jv for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:30:16 -0700 Received: by gxk8 with SMTP id 8sf365694gxk.12 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:30:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=oUqATvqUWlHBMKfy8Uc5+2EWubxItIKM8aKOO4Wr9/c=; b=qxOaQaoRf43ISjR4IZoRLJvBUNXEvPXbiLB3bxPjZi6nOtoNu01wSRZewmHhwjy79c 2LhDChgY11tw9BV58t9mN9q80+973W3qONly6n3LGtZf75HpyE/nTHORVKCSk46XV18E KAfIwSzbr5PNSb8sPWSiOen1pE82RlaVORh6A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=MKD2syPtYHXNbOq4KAFe/sR25L9mdGPWJCzQtHsTvbRQ1bFd/sRBFVbg+jZsSCovu7 7OGvr1KTwcz55zaEIWAEol1hZiYm7e6zaE1BDvFxVC6wuiY38OR0F5f5jsw2ryDPmwI8 M0xYfayDzW26WU7gQZjo/X2CO233eerzDGeek= Received: by 10.91.84.19 with SMTP id m19mr38990agl.42.1270052989235; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:29:49 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.6.77 with SMTP id 13ls257897bky.3.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.13.70 with SMTP id b6mr461857bka.37.1270052987542; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.13.70 with SMTP id b6mr461856bka.37.1270052987466; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f178.google.com (mail-wy0-f178.google.com [74.125.82.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v26si6926100bkt.3.2010.03.31.09.29.46; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.178; Received: by mail-wy0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 36so125915wyg.9 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:29:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.2.209 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:29:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BB35C9A.6080903@lojban.org> References: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003300803m6caec9f7y7a66b3bf9b71009b@mail.gmail.com> <32A2435D-5119-409E-8CAD-E5F899C5AAF1@mac.com> <9E58473C-A8AC-464F-826D-E44470D7F15F@gmail.com> <79614.64421.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <072F7F4E-1EB1-4BB5-B92D-7DDC4C43600B@gmail.com> <4BB35C9A.6080903@lojban.org> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:29:46 -0600 Received: by 10.216.89.142 with SMTP id c14mr734659wef.55.1270052986263; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/13b73ad5854be74a Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d7f0b01797d404831b418f --0016e6d7f0b01797d404831b418f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 8:30 AM, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > >> As I said, using "la" for: >> >> ...when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her... >> >> is at the very least semantically odd. (Syntactically, it is fine.) >> > > By English semantics it is somewhat odd. It seems precisely to represent > in Lojban the choice in the English to capitalize what are normally commo= n > nouns in English. Compare "suddenly a John Smith with brown hair ran pas= t > her" (would "la" be semantically odd in translating that?). > > With the proviso that I don't know what "la" is currently defined as unde= r > the adopted xorlo %^) The capitalization suggests a named referent, and = in > English suggests the possibility of plural such named referents of which > this is but one. Lojban "la" is (I suspect) ambivalent in number. It is > possible that under xorlo, which IIRC has no default number interpretatio= n, > all instances of English "a" should correctly be translated as "pa lo" or > "pa le" or "pa la". .ui coi .lojbab. mi salci lonu do xruti The only change to {la} with xorlo is regarding inner and outer quantifiers= : (Quoted from http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo) la is unchanged save for clarification. - la has no inner quantifier; a number after la is considered part of th= e name. - la's outer quantifier is just like lo's. (As in, no default.) And regarding "one ": ...if you mean "one bear", consider actually saying "pa cribe".... ...xorxes points out that to refer to one bear, "lo pa cribe" is actually a bit better; "pa cribe cu broda" means that exactly one cribe in the whole world brodas.... > lojbab > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6d7f0b01797d404831b418f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 8:30 AM, Bob LeChevalier= <lojbab@lojban.o= rg> wrote:
Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
As I said, using "la" = for:

=A0 =A0...when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close= by her...

is at the very least semantically odd. (Syntactically, it is fine.)
=

By English semantics it is somewhat odd. =A0It seems= precisely to represent in Lojban the choice in the English to capitalize w= hat are normally common nouns in English. =A0Compare "suddenly a John = Smith with brown hair ran past her" (would "la" be semantica= lly odd in translating that?).

With the proviso that I don't know what "la" is currently= defined as under the adopted xorlo %^) =A0The capitalization suggests a na= med referent, and in English suggests the possibility of plural such named = referents of which this is but one. =A0Lojban "la" is (I suspect)= ambivalent in number. =A0It is possible that under xorlo, which IIRC has n= o default number interpretation, all instances of English "a" sho= uld correctly be translated as "pa lo" or "pa le" or &q= uot;pa la".
=A0
.ui coi .lojbab. mi salci lonu do xruti
=A0
The only change to {la} with xorlo is regarding = inner and outer quantifiers:
=A0
(Quoted from http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo)
la is unchanged save for clarification.
  • la has no inner quantifier; a number after la is considered part of the= name.=20
  • la's outer quantifier is just like lo's. (As in, no default.)
And regarding "one <something>":

...if you mean "one bear", consider actually saying "pa c= ribe"....

...xorxes points out that to refer to one bear, "lo pa cribe"= ; is actually a bit better; "pa cribe cu broda" means that exactl= y one cribe in the whole world brodas....
=A0
lojbab

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--
mu'o mi&#= 39;e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

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