From 3mpizSwoJBjIgicaWQVfWgUaOWZ.QcaZcXPObUccUZSUfcidg.Qca@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 11:47:17 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f163.google.com ([209.85.210.163]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3mpizSwoJBjIgicaWQVfWgUaOWZ.QcaZcXPObUccUZSUfcidg.Qca@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nx2wZ-0006pe-NT for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:47:16 -0700 Received: by yxe35 with SMTP id 35sf402814yxe.24 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:47:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=awjlHuTH0p72nwGLx4PkErVXhsx4RMGVsHrxFjkiuOM=; b=yeeAuu+8gKvMNr9iMj9Wno3DLi7t2Kzs2WVCbK+YvHwExdG8h/4Vym6z5ta/+eugrN l6OclOeny5oacehfFqHqhR5eKi3di1DIMQw8Xa2m28j86T1/RCnWm351UmsbVCCa6KwJ 56wkNOyYZcFciqZRUGNcYID96ZvIPyRrZymbA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=TO+GUdw1a3Rb2xePvP1VfIBQhHxSy0fhCV3ISXQXnUmKZnhKfI7HfGLTPWFPgYVqM6 9//abRV7K7lWXxHgLyE0GJp59mvSNfki8QPVZv5kW+tE7CVRSHs91T1CbcRjIFS4Auhb 33YBK4SQMh6oBLkFbiuO8lcocI3EnCD90nkkA= Received: by 10.101.26.33 with SMTP id d33mr3957anj.33.1270061210446; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:46:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.146.27 with SMTP id y27ls171673ann.2.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.133.37 with SMTP id k37mr54454ann.15.1270061208132; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.133.37 with SMTP id k37mr54452ann.15.1270061208076; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f180.google.com (mail-gy0-f180.google.com [209.85.160.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si320883yxe.0.2010.03.31.11.46.47; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.180; Received: by gyc15 with SMTP id 15so193031gyc.39 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:46:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:46:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100331182202.GL3000@nvg.org> References: <20100331182202.GL3000@nvg.org> From: Christopher Doty Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:46:19 -0700 Received: by 10.101.176.33 with SMTP id d33mr205668anp.49.1270061200259; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/fa7939d25ef9afcc Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5bea2afc2e804831d2a6b --001636c5bea2afc2e804831d2a6b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 11:22, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > > Re 1, 2 and 5: gismu are generally neither created nor removed. The chang= e > you outline would be the most radical change to gismu space in the histor= y > of Lojban. It would invalidate much existing text, and is therefore unlik= ely > to be accepted. > > For examples of gismu changes that might considered by the BPFK, see > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gismu+Issues Fair enough. Nonetheless, having gismu for some languages/cultures/countries, and tying those things together in a single word, pretty much invalidates any claim to cultural neutrality--if the BPFK is serious about this issue, something will have to be done at some point t= o address that issue. Re 3, 4 and 6: fu'ivla like this are being created all the time, and is a > good thing IMO. But care should be taken to make them as close to any > relevant autonyms as possible. > The problem with going straight from autonyms is that we're going to run up against a lot of languages the have sounds which we can't represent in Lojban. Since the ISO codes have, in some sense, already gone through the trouble of putting such things into an ASCII form with largely obvious and transparent replacements for many of the sounds, this seems like a good place to start. > Only the LLG can change the gismu, but anyone can make fu'ivla. I suggest > you go the latter route exclusively. > > Re 4: it may prove difficult to make a workable mapping from ISO 639-3 > codes to fu'ivla. Such a mapping would necessarily be quite opaque, which > would hinder adoption. I suggest using fu'ivla based entirely on autonyms= . > Making good fu'ivla based on autonyms requires some knowledge of the sour= ce > language, which means that it cannot be done automatically on the basis o= f a > list of autonyms. I don't really think this would be that difficult. Plus, ISO codes get us one other advantage in terms of recognizability. There cases, for example Finnish, where something like "fin" occurs in pretty much every language's word for Finland/Finnish, EXCEPT for Finnish itself, where it is "suomi." The ISO, rightly I think, uses "fin" for Finnish instead of something like "suo." > Not sure what you mean by =93coordinating=94. A lot of this can be done o= n an > ad-hoc basis, but requires some quite arcane knowledge on the part of > whoever actually coins the word, especially when it comes to fu'ivla. Yes, this could be done on an ad hoc basis, but then one ends up with a bunch of random words with different forms made by different people at different times. I was just thinking that, by agreeing broadly on a set of criteria and getting the largest languages/countries/whatever out of the way, there would be an internal consistency to it, making it more logical and thus more lojbanic. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636c5bea2afc2e804831d2a6b Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 11:22, Arnt Richard Johansen <= arj@nvg.org> wrote:

Re 1, 2 and 5: gismu are generally neither created nor removed. The c= hange you outline would be the most radical change to gismu space in the hi= story of Lojban. It would invalidate much existing text, and is therefore u= nlikely to be accepted.

For examples of gismu changes that might considered by the BPFK, see http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gismu+Issues

Fair enough. =A0Nonetheless, having gismu for some languages= /cultures/countries, and tying those things together in a single word, pret= ty much invalidates any claim to cultural neutrality--if the BPFK is seriou= s about this issue, something will have to be done at some point to address= that issue.

Re 3, 4 and 6: fu'ivla like this are being created all the time, and is= a good thing IMO. But care should be taken to make them as close to any re= levant autonyms as possible.

The proble= m with going straight from autonyms is that we're going to run up again= st a lot of languages the have sounds which we can't represent in Lojba= n. =A0Since the ISO codes have, in some sense, already gone through the tro= uble of putting such things into an ASCII form with largely obvious and tra= nsparent replacements for many of the sounds, this seems like a good place = to start.
=A0
Only the LLG can change the g= ismu, but anyone can make fu'ivla. I suggest you go the latter route ex= clusively.

Re 4: it may prove difficult to make a workable mapping from ISO 639-3 code= s to fu'ivla. Such a mapping would necessarily be quite opaque, which w= ould hinder adoption. I suggest using fu'ivla based entirely on autonym= s. Making good fu'ivla based on autonyms requires some knowledge of the= source language, which means that it cannot be done automatically on the b= asis of a list of autonyms.

I don't really think this would be that difficult. = =A0Plus, ISO codes get us one other advantage in terms of recognizability. = There cases, for example Finnish, where something like "fin" occu= rs in pretty much every language's word for Finland/Finnish, EXCEPT for= Finnish itself, where it is "suomi." =A0The ISO, rightly I think= , uses "fin" for Finnish instead of something like "suo.&quo= t;
=A0
Not sure what you mean by =93coordinating=94. A lot of this can be do= ne on an ad-hoc basis, but requires some quite arcane knowledge on the part= of whoever actually coins the word, especially when it comes to fu'ivl= a.

Yes, this could be done on an ad hoc basis, but then on= e ends up with a bunch of random words with different forms made by differe= nt people at different times. =A0I was just thinking that, by agreeing broa= dly on a set of criteria and getting the largest languages/countries/whatev= er out of the way, there would be an internal consistency to it, making it = more logical and thus more lojbanic.

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