From 3sJqzSwYKBkox0vnmnx0vnmz.03sx0vnmzs00sxqs30614.o0y@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 11:56:06 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3sJqzSwYKBkox0vnmnx0vnmz.03sx0vnmzs00sxqs30614.o0y@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nx355-0007Es-R0 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:56:05 -0700 Received: by mail-vw0-f61.google.com with SMTP id 1sf865116vws.16 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:55:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=7UaSDZo6nWEyOPPH5k6m3VUTO/CqTyOkVB1t3jyMYgU=; b=tI/kr0DeGGzg3JyAHGvXmmbLO59WLsC6LPQObpayTQr0hXkSOmFimgS+IrkPlELQHN K9KwkMpClR4ovntVdTD+9NSToy0BrQXsEqiYvOW6oOJyu7ccgicl3NkjZ+H7r8NDwgoP v+ulEC7ggKc9DFltWyIR9XxnOjDGJOPpNny3w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=SDGhsUTS+qyLUhDZHiOIf+oTEL+TGzwqAyijPmxy9cYWXCVUFG1ZP+c9iqBWxweWQr 6dlQNCoMFNpxN19H5r3pj23RkPDMKro43PD2hbydSXV+Maa4zqbL9ieesBXulLzQ0knF izlccrSCHqRHAAiK2ph1QcJls7qDtOXMrzF20= Received: by 10.220.127.34 with SMTP id e34mr12322vcs.2.1270061744713; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:55:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.85 with SMTP id o21ls189698vck.0.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.76.203 with SMTP id d11mr871148vck.11.1270061743192; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.42.40 with SMTP id p40mr612780agp.3.1270059552969; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.42.40 with SMTP id p40mr612777agp.3.1270059552915; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao103.cox.net (eastrmmtao103.cox.net [68.230.240.9]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si319309yxe.8.2010.03.31.11.19.12; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.9; Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100331181912.PUWC27114.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:19:12 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.187.225.124]) by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id zuKB1d00C2hfrC602uKBg5; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:19:12 -0400 X-VR-Score: -80.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=cs6kSf+HHnKg3LeUHIN5b3vawL7XSC7SgZ9jeip75oA= c=1 sm=1 a=VFxCzlUvzhgA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:17 a=8pif782wAAAA:8 a=sgRgXPFMWgOSUp_B0EQA:9 a=Qxgwf3MhILE03GvCFZ4A:7 a=bCrOODmoDuZENwExKj_ddgly_0EA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=yvVCtEg9pukCobZd:21 a=gHERLOux-GbDDr6W:21 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4BB3921C.50308@lojban.org> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:19:08 -0400 From: Bob LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla References: In-Reply-To: X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/4c9ecdfb81725a1f Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Christopher Doty wrote: > I just wanted to sort of condense what we have been talking about here > in a more compact fashion. Essentially, the idea would be to (I've > ordered the list logically, not temporally): > > 1) Chuck the cultural gismu (this seems to be an idea that has been > around for awhile anyway, we just need good replacements). > > 2) Develop a new, much smaller set of gismu to cover things that were > previously included in the cultural gismu, such as reflecting > language/cultural/nationality in some respect. > > 3) For countries/territories: develop fu'ivla for the member states of > the UN, along with other "important" areas (importance being based on an > as-yet undetermined criterion). > > 4) For languages: develop fu'ivla based on the ISO code for the > languages present in the 639-1 set of codes, but using their code as of > the 639-3 revision. (I think it would be cool to use the language > family codes, as presented here > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639-2#Collective_language_codes), when > filling out the fu'ivla.) > > 5) For religions: develop gismu that cover the world's major religions > (probably with some artificial cut-off for number of adherents), (along > with another couple gismu for "atheist" and something like "native > beliefs/practices of x2"?) > > 6) For land masses: develop fu'ivla for either the seven continents as > conventionally understood, or else for the major tectonic plates (which > largely correlates with the continents, but leads to a bit more > precision with a few more fu'ivla). If we did go the plate route, we'd > have to again have some sort of artificial cut-off TBD. > > Hopefully that summary accurately represents the discussion thus far. > > Since it seems like this project has stagnated in the past, It has not stagnated. It has been rejected. It will continue to be rejected. The gismu are baselined. The baseline isn't going to be changed because someone doesn't like something or thinks it could have been done better. We are more than 15 years past the point where people were willing to even consider changing the list. We officially and expressly DON'T want the language redesigned by fiat, in whole or in part. This isn't supposed to be a language design project any more, but a language-using project. (Bearing in mind that the byfy work defining the cmavo has never been completed, but there is a strong bias even there against change). The goal is to turn the baselined language over to users, who will *use* the language, which will then evolve according to actual usage. There will cease to be a language prescription, in favor of language description. If people need a gismu that doesn't exist, they can of course invent one ad hoc, though the intent is that they invent fu'ivla, and only a demonstrably useful fu'ivla would ever be made into a gismu (there is provision that assigning gismu might be done officially at some future point, but only after seeing a pattern of actual usage). Fu'ivla space is up for grabs, and people can choose to systematically create fu'ivla. If you limit your project to that, I certainly won't fight it (but I don't promise to ever support it either). > But, > before I do any of that, I'd like to make sure that a) people seem > generally of the opinion that some change like this is probably a good > idea, 20 years ago, it might have been. Not now. My apologies if this comes across as rude, but I don't know how to put it any more politely. The question has been repeatedly debated, and even though there have always been people VERY unhappy with the cultural gismu, whatever may be wrong with them is not important enough to change LLG's fundamental philosophy about the language ("strong baseline" and "let usage decide"). lojbab -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.