From 36aizSwoJBpE6z9D.796vD17v36.x97694wv819916z1C9FAD.x97@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 12:56:52 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f192.google.com ([209.85.217.192]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <36aizSwoJBpE6z9D.796vD17v36.x97694wv819916z1C9FAD.x97@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nx41u-0002x7-JI for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:56:52 -0700 Received: by gxk8 with SMTP id 8sf550715gxk.12 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:56:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=dfQE21J9a39mJu52eQBbMEuY6myE1kSLyAkC8pOOdtY=; b=FmTQAsOJmNFJL4NburPUB1ITzqni8ZHaVYNdEATgZ9MXwRFQJupcjvBl2XgNVGxe35 e5zFB8tVvjywkjXUtWxzGKY5q1cnV70SQzGo/SbqqFrvY0ODeSJFtfChaad91Yhx66z1 OohIoUca7D40u0JEkPzdyfwYnrpnTKuoVna1w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version :content-type:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; b=L87HUPzfWqQJxmVZbac+Q92nUsR773fo1MQGiPTV7RJrkjp454PQlsWe9oEmfib2dx crJ9eu7ESSYiYt7OvhfliN4okI5wXBjFCPPbvHOUdh+1NTktUMNPF1AyVuo99kR6t7bZ OU4gqn0OgpDca4vSaccDEI9sR53SP01s8F+z0= Received: by 10.101.138.35 with SMTP id q35mr5221ann.26.1270065385292; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:56:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.66.23 with SMTP id t23ls161070agk.6.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.42.40 with SMTP id p40mr738210agp.3.1270065382422; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.42.40 with SMTP id p40mr738178agp.3.1270065380972; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f193.google.com (mail-yx0-f193.google.com [209.85.210.193]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si534294gxk.15.2010.03.31.12.56.19; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.193 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.193; Received: by yxe31 with SMTP id 31so262784yxe.16 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.81.10 with SMTP id e10mr274281ybb.155.1270065379616; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([190.97.37.224]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 6sm1838686ywd.53.2010.03.31.12.56.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BB3A8E7.3000500@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:56:23 -0300 From: Leo Molas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; es-AR; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla References: <4BB3921C.50308@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig6377D5DB995EC2663CE517ED" X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.193 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=leos.molas@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: leos.molas@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/b5cbf00483c03003 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig6377D5DB995EC2663CE517ED Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El 31/03/2010 04:43 p.m., Christopher Doty escribi=F3: >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 11:19, Bob LeChevalier > wrote: >=20 > Christopher Doty wrote: >=20 > I just wanted to sort of condense what we have been talking > about here in a more compact fashion. Essentially, the idea > would be to (I've ordered the list logically, not temporally): >=20 > 1) Chuck the cultural gismu (this seems to be an idea that has > been around for awhile anyway, we just need good replacements).= >=20 > 2) Develop a new, much smaller set of gismu to cover things tha= t > were previously included in the cultural gismu, such as > reflecting language/cultural/nationality in some respect. >=20 > 3) For countries/territories: develop fu'ivla for the member > states of the UN, along with other "important" areas (importanc= e > being based on an as-yet undetermined criterion). >=20 > 4) For languages: develop fu'ivla based on the ISO code for the= > languages present in the 639-1 set of codes, but using their > code as of the 639-3 revision. (I think it would be cool to us= e > the language family codes, as presented here > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639-2#Collective_language_cod= es), > when filling out the fu'ivla.) >=20 > 5) For religions: develop gismu that cover the world's major > religions (probably with some artificial cut-off for number of > adherents), (along with another couple gismu for "atheist" and > something like "native beliefs/practices of x2"?) >=20 > 6) For land masses: develop fu'ivla for either the seven > continents as conventionally understood, or else for the major > tectonic plates (which largely correlates with the continents, > but leads to a bit more precision with a few more fu'ivla). If= > we did go the plate route, we'd have to again have some sort of= > artificial cut-off TBD. >=20 > Hopefully that summary accurately represents the discussion thu= s > far. >=20 > Since it seems like this project has stagnated in the past, >=20 >=20 > It has not stagnated. It has been rejected. It will continue to b= e > rejected. >=20 > The gismu are baselined. The baseline isn't going to be changed > because someone doesn't like something or thinks it could have been= > done better. We are more than 15 years past the point where people= > were willing to even consider changing the list. >=20 > We officially and expressly DON'T want the language redesigned by > fiat, in whole or in part. This isn't supposed to be a language > design project any more, but a language-using project. (Bearing in= > mind that the byfy work defining the cmavo has never been completed= , > but there is a strong bias even there against change). >=20 > The goal is to turn the baselined language over to users, who will > *use* the language, which will then evolve according to actual > usage. There will cease to be a language prescription, in favor of= > language description. >=20 > If people need a gismu that doesn't exist, they can of course inven= t > one ad hoc, though the intent is that they invent fu'ivla, and only= > a demonstrably useful fu'ivla would ever be made into a gismu (ther= e > is provision that assigning gismu might be done officially at some > future point, but only after seeing a pattern of actual usage). >=20 > Fu'ivla space is up for grabs, and people can choose to > systematically create fu'ivla. If you limit your project to that, = I > certainly won't fight it (but I don't promise to ever support it > either). >=20 >=20 > > But, >=20 > before I do any of that, I'd like to make sure that a) people > seem generally of the opinion that some change like this is > probably a good idea, >=20 >=20 > 20 years ago, it might have been. Not now. >=20 > My apologies if this comes across as rude, but I don't know how to > put it any more politely. The question has been repeatedly debated= , > and even though there have always been people VERY unhappy with the= > cultural gismu, whatever may be wrong with them is not important > enough to change LLG's fundamental philosophy about the language > ("strong baseline" and "let usage decide"). >=20 >=20 > I do not find it particularly rude, and am happy that I can think about= > this as it would be a waste of time. Am I missing some part of the sit= e > that would have let me know that this idea has already been proposed an= d > rejected over and over? Everything I have seen there makes it look lik= e > it is something that has been, and still is, ongoing. >=20 > I must say I find the disconnect between the claims of cultural neutral= > and violation of those claims in the very vocabulary of the language to= > be completely weird. Illogical, even. >=20 I must say I agree with that last part. Some countries having a gismu and others not isn't cultural neutrality. But also it's important to maintain this gismu list. Perhaps all of this should be done, as lojbab said, with fu'ivla, and encourage all the people to use this ones instead of the existing gismu, hoping all lojbanist find this gismu as awful as we do. The project should not be stopped; it only needs a change of course. mu'o mi'e .leos. --=20 My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com --------------enig6377D5DB995EC2663CE517ED Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJLs6jsAAoJEGPqAjdF26uECeEH/jRld84PpMG9MPqvlLGu+ja0 SFq9dzIrVlgToYF1DlwruNZSMAJCQV/4sFa0/ZN/t9/aE0D+VFJe6LqPaFbaiPdp NoHxZM0sbIQM9UzT1hFjDJLS6thT/d1rp4V8A+UDOC4dbsf9nXysOgLUaiARoh2o ZyrWs67jaos8KrZbW/te/WnLjoZIGAR0qMo4m03iHwGbIRiwO1IfkaZSgX0cCuq0 LIf623J+XdzH2yqFw5SWELzqvYiC/2FUJhu4rIQWGaXdnU6U4I975mShR+aMUCpK QtA1UzYgXjW1uqLzuwm5+00861AriI/wwMScm1C46vGNGwGbZ6kQmhhkBFsK62I= =ETJj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig6377D5DB995EC2663CE517ED--