From 3nLazSwoJBlICE862w1B2C06u25.w86583vu708805y0B8E9C.w86@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 13:55:24 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3nLazSwoJBlICE862w1B2C06u25.w86583vu708805y0B8E9C.w86@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nx4wV-0007Er-3J for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:55:21 -0700 Received: by gwb1 with SMTP id 1sf481707gwb.16 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:55:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=o0fuUz8XBMLGrX76GwRpMRrqS3VMnMgObKwN1VHXJtA=; b=zLe5SAly9nSln+Lh3RUFtkalasm27canPbKzcJhOO898qbKz+FZxIZbZqKesC1VN2y al53X+eDJ/540aVt9lT6NCNqdzo9jhSrD6fM2wXDjfPWTZk5rnYooAI4of/3Bu8PG6uF vd4ps32ScDJDNR5++olPeFJCL05f0W5IvPp5g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=JRasuhiikCTP+J8ZCSpWxDwySS2e+DtIAaJ2rDTg8NTfT62ufxmZ5lRMV0EubfYFq+ o+DebKeacyAcTfIfMR8gAZ99eFmK+azv2RW8qBHNhPIRW0LwAHKYUsyodfkgwyV2GdMZ QcPw0DHfuk3VDNrNonc+uKq+5Jeax1SxMNyGg= Received: by 10.91.91.7 with SMTP id t7mr75937agl.45.1270068892402; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:54:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.160.26 with SMTP id m26ls166454ago.4.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.150.2 with SMTP id c2mr662014ago.13.1270068891320; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.150.2 with SMTP id c2mr662003ago.13.1270068890949; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f180.google.com (mail-gy0-f180.google.com [209.85.160.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 12si534098gxk.10.2010.03.31.13.54.49; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.180; Received: by gyc15 with SMTP id 15so243573gyc.39 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:54:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:54:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BB3921C.50308@lojban.org> <4BB3A8E7.3000500@gmail.com> From: Christopher Doty Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:54:27 -0700 Received: by 10.101.176.33 with SMTP id d33mr516266anp.49.1270068888356; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/b72ccf679088907c Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5bea2ee7e5f04831ef45b --001636c5bea2ee7e5f04831ef45b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/3/31 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas > > A couple of problems that I see with the ISO-codes idea is that the > codes include h, q, w, and that many letter combinations will not be > valid in Lojban phonotactics. Converting h -> x, q -> k, w -> v or u > would probably create many duplicate codes, and I'm not sure how to > deal with the phonotactics issue. Unfortunately, the phonotactics of Lojban, being so restricted, this is always going to be a problem, I think. A greater issue caused by 'c' (whos= e idea was that letter, anyway?!), as it could be, phonetically, /s, k, or tc/. My gut reaction is to go for the sound over the actual letter. In terms of the ISO codes, the original idea (in my head, at least) would b= e to have the fu'ivla forms based on the ISO to as large as an extent as possible, but fully acknowledging that it might not always be. Developing these isn't really all that hard. Here's a sample of what I cam= e up with earlier, which took maybe 20-30 minutes. In all of the below, everything before the ' is derived as much as possible from the language code, the second part from the language family ISO code. Language name in English (native name) fu'ivla (actual language ISO code/language family ISO code) Afar (Afaraf) fra'afa (aar/afa) Albanian (Shqip) ski'ine (sqi/ine) Amharic (-amharinynya-) xma'afa (amh/afa) Argonese (Argon=C3=A9s) gra'ine (arg/ine) Assamese (=E0=A6=85=E0=A6=B8=E0=A6=AE=E0=A7=80=E0=A6=AF=E0=A6=BC=E0=A6=BE) = sma'ine (asm/ine) Belarusian (=D0=91=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=B0=D1=80=D1=83=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B0=D1=8F) b= le'ine (bel/ine) Breton (brezhoneg) bre'ine (bre/ine) Chechen (=D0=BD=D0=BE=D1=85=D1=87=D0=B8=D0=B9=D0=BD =D0=BC=D0=BE=D1=82=D1= =82) tce'acu (che/cau) etc. Chris --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636c5bea2ee7e5f04831ef45b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/3/31 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>

A couple of problems that I see with the ISO-codes idea is that the
codes include h, q, w, and that many letter combinations will not be
valid in Lojban phonotactics. Converting h -> x, q -> k, w -> v or= u
would probably create many duplicate codes, and I'm not sure how to
deal with the phonotactics issue.

Unfortuna= tely, the phonotactics of Lojban, being so restricted, this is always going= to be a problem, I think. =C2=A0A greater issue caused by 'c' (who= se idea was that letter, anyway?!), as it could be, phonetically, /s, k, or= tc/. =C2=A0My gut reaction is to go for the sound over the actual letter.<= /div>

In terms of the ISO codes, the original idea (in my hea= d, at least) would be to have the fu'ivla forms based on the ISO to as = large as an extent as possible, but fully acknowledging that it might not a= lways be.

Developing these isn't really all that hard. =C2=A0= Here's a sample of what I came up with earlier, which took maybe 20-30 = minutes. =C2=A0In all of the below, everything before the ' is derived = as much as possible from the language code, the second part from the langua= ge family ISO code.

Language name in English (native name) fu'ivla (act= ual language ISO code/language family ISO code)
Afar (Afaraf) fra= 'afa (aar/afa)
Albanian (Shqip) ski'ine (sqi/ine)
Amharic (-amharinynya-) xma'afa (amh/afa)
Argonese (Argo= n=C3=A9s) gra'ine (arg/ine)
Assamese (=E0=A6=85=E0=A6=B8=E0=A6=AE=E0=A7= =80=E0=A6=AF=E0=A6=BC=E0=A6=BE) sma'ine (asm/ine)
Belarusian (=D0= =91=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=B0=D1=80=D1=83=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B0=D1=8F) ble'ine (bel= /ine)
Breton (brezhoneg) bre'ine (bre/ine)
Chechen (=D0=BD= =D0=BE=D1=85=D1=87=D0=B8=D0=B9=D0=BD =D0=BC=D0=BE=D1=82=D1=82) tce'acu = (che/cau)

etc.

Chris

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