From 3Gr6zSwYKBtcEHC434EHC43G.HK9EHC43G9HH9E79KHNIL.5HF@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 14:27:18 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3Gr6zSwYKBtcEHC434EHC43G.HK9EHC43G9HH9E79KHNIL.5HF@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nx5RR-0000kv-Qg for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:27:18 -0700 Received: by vws1 with SMTP id 1sf1273821vws.16 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:27:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Je1n1PKpgEGgttwjwDrmFg3SRzfTC2e91F4JEs0rOIo=; b=ZLNS7a5LqCwVDzdEcHqefZGbvHjJgQoY7YEvLw7dLm6VG8WH0+Hmqli2YBWG+wQPVa gVkSDl+GS6oqvu/lENQrmAjFK0Afa88WJXewbk2zn/ScR2KWfA6WTKXmYpcTxBXuok4u WWqhJXlUxFGuwLA4wHJWsArIxrapYLsY4rZqA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=wbIsiJ+jKzUYvTGXGo2DuiFt/BbXnC4oEEjXSXbAseCc/IZ/xn4T48wuWm24irOLr0 5+LvgKJdDdwvDSkWahJJzd1S0A+ziPBuTCPjFTl0h7Y54B0dv9GASrDyTOhXO5f8EOvU mY5jshORnL0YkxraG+ggSdznWth55ViLSBGv0= Received: by 10.220.107.40 with SMTP id z40mr23351vco.41.1270070811071; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:26:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.87.130 with SMTP id w2ls218659vcl.4.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.164.205 with SMTP id f13mr2841vcy.2.1270070809011; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.6.5 with SMTP id j5mr146237agi.2.1270069432727; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.6.5 with SMTP id j5mr146180agi.2.1270069428771; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao107.cox.net (eastrmmtao107.cox.net [68.230.240.59]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si155923yxe.10.2010.03.31.14.03.48; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.59 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.59; Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmmtao107.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100331210348.UERE23683.eastrmmtao107.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:03:48 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.187.225.124]) by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id zx3n1d00T2hfrC602x3ngJ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:03:48 -0400 X-VR-Score: -80.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=cs6kSf+HHnKg3LeUHIN5b3vawL7XSC7SgZ9jeip75oA= c=1 sm=1 a=VFxCzlUvzhgA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:17 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=wDIFR_yLq_RoNw0upUgA:9 a=oqW_l-tE7PrgexME-_oA:7 a=JasYxeDcCKw9COUuyBXn52OhfywA:4 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=nty1G4_jybwA:10 a=oXQeIzBvu6DquV16:21 a=as-y4nWdll9ezTZT:21 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4BB3B8B0.2090206@lojban.org> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:03:44 -0400 From: Bob LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla References: <4BB3921C.50308@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.59 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/1b9830f72a5eccdc Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christopher Doty wrote: > I do not find it particularly rude, Thanks. I was trying not to be, but my tact skill has never been=20 particularly strong, and it has been tested today in numerous ways (not=20 all of them Lojban-related). > and am happy that I can think about=20 > this as it would be a waste of time. Am I missing some part of the site= =20 > that would have let me know that this idea has already been proposed and= =20 > rejected over and over?=20 I don't know. It has been a long, long time since I had any clue what=20 was on the site and where. I can read a wiki page, but my mind doesn't=20 exactly grasp how a wiki system really works. If you are interested in the key ideas behind the language, and the=20 decisions that guided us in language development, one excellent place=20 would be to read the issues of Ju'i Lobypli, which was our irregular=20 journal until around 1994. http://www.lojban.org/files/jl/ http://www.lojban.org/files/why-lojban/whylojb.txt has a chunk of stuff from JL6, which included a good deal of reference=20 to cultural and metaphysical neutrality. I just looked, and the wiki topic "cultural neutrality" actually seems=20 to deal with this pretty well, if briefly. http://www.lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure-utf/lingissues.html#AEN1= 2681 also is good. There is a Lojban FAQ that says > =E2=80=A2What you you mean by "culturally neutral"?=20 > =E2=97=A6Lojban makes explicit the cultural biases that are often inheren= t in > people's use of language. It does so by having its own bias: but this i= s > a bias towards the conventions of formal logics, rather than of a > specific human language or culture. Ah. I just came up with the right answer. Go to Google Groups and=20 search for "cultural gismu criteria". Most of the messages are relevant=20 (and of course those I wrote are most relevant %^) Just "cultural=20 gismu" in quotes gives others. Again, to find out the "why" of most=20 language design decisions, focus on stuff before 1995, the earlier the=20 better. > Everything I have seen there makes it look like > it is something that has been, and still is, ongoing. I *can* answer that. Because anyone and everyone can change the wiki,=20 on any given topic it is heavily weighted towards whatever the most=20 recent editors are thinking. If there is institutional memory therein,=20 it is probably in the pages that haven't been changed in several years. More importantly, most LLG policy predates the wiki and the only things=20 that get put onto wiki pages are things that people want to write. Thus=20 the page on "cultural gismu" has only peoples' criticisms of it, but=20 doesn't have anything about the reasoning that was used to put them into=20 the language (which has numerous stages, starting with work done by JCB=20 40-odd years ago) LLG policy tends to stagnate for several years. Ongoing stuff is what=20 people want to work on *now* and may have nothing at all to do with what=20 people wanted last year or what LLG policy is. For the most part, the=20 formal part of LLG doesn't get involved > I must say I find the disconnect between the claims of cultural neutral= =20 The claim of cultural neutrality is a relative one. > and violation of those claims in the very vocabulary of the language to= =20 > be completely weird. Illogical, even. As you will find as you explore the places discussing the topic, being=20 logical itself is a cultural bias. So we mustn't be TOO logical %^). lojbab --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.