From 3msCzSwoJBloKMGEA49JAK8E2AD.4GEDGB32F8GG8D68JGMHK.4GE@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 14:37:54 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3msCzSwoJBloKMGEA49JAK8E2AD.4GEDGB32F8GG8D68JGMHK.4GE@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nx5bj-0001Zx-5j for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:37:54 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf488761ywh.28 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:37:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=PI443PEP5m4K+IdWbP1KuuaB9MtLpFIkrbrrM8QY9Eg=; b=v782uWvR1tMzZd0WVpvZedVnNF5FP6ioIPTo737S6kcKaKj6McwZ2tLxKezwwount0 vaqlNPMfcIsYe6P/QiIogPfCuHm1D63lDZsUC7ayYAu/j1dNF6w5gQnsVBK5JizgVb13 POzfOLpKXCdJMofPYV00dPGI5WhPgv3K/k49I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=t+18wD/6jBoXec5cEE8vHO4TUVJgnPZedtlFCqZObaWUDGnaRsqNaSQUpaMWIN42Wn UD9OjD1RVijP/oHp4ABmcJkyGjLyqRhjPJy7x4gGmjpDThVZV6uz0rdQ6vYIcjBearQZ 3BL7NdILICX2jT7eOefHG6typZGQ2Imye/2To= Received: by 10.91.91.6 with SMTP id t6mr79882agl.14.1270071450141; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:37:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.91.8 with SMTP id t8ls172267agl.2.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.6.5 with SMTP id j5mr184718agi.2.1270071448418; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.6.5 with SMTP id j5mr184701agi.2.1270071447649; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f172.google.com (mail-yw0-f172.google.com [209.85.211.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 17si538458gxk.8.2010.03.31.14.37.26; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.211.172; Received: by mail-yw0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 2so298594ywh.33 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:37:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:37:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BB3921C.50308@lojban.org> <4BB3A8E7.3000500@gmail.com> From: Christopher Doty Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:37:00 -0700 Received: by 10.101.135.17 with SMTP id m17mr539478ann.23.1270071441368; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/ef50d456795efea3 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5c2971a279204831f8d31 --001636c5c2971a279204831f8d31 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/3/31 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas > > I assume it was JCB's idea, since Lojban inherited it from Loglan. > It's not as crazy as it may seem though, given that: > I meant the letter /c/ in general, not its usage in Lojban (which matches its usage in a number of other transcription systems). > > as it could be, phonetically, /s, k, or > > tc/. My gut reaction is to go for the sound over the actual letter. > > Ouch! What's the point of using the codes then? > Because the codes make an excellent starting point. If we leave the letter= s the same, regardless of pronunciation, we lose the autonymic component. > > In terms of the ISO codes, the original idea (in my head, at least) wou= ld > be > > to have the fu'ivla forms based on the ISO to as large as an extent as > > possible, but fully acknowledging that it might not always be. > > If the transformation ISO -> fu'ivla is not univocal and preferrably > reversible, it loses most of its appeal, at least for me. > Fair enough, although it would actually be imposible to do it this way, since at least some of the lang codes have illegal clusters, or no vowels a= t all. Some of them will have to be tweaked to fit. > > Developing these isn't really all that hard. Here's a sample of what I > came > > up with earlier, which took maybe 20-30 minutes. In all of the below, > > everything before the ' is derived as much as possible from the languag= e > > code, the second part from the language family ISO code. > > Language name in English (native name) fu'ivla (actual language ISO > > code/language family ISO code) > > Afar (Afaraf) fra'afa (aar/afa) > > Albanian (Shqip) ski'ine (sqi/ine) > > Amharic (-amharinynya-) xma'afa (amh/afa) > > This one fails. "xm" is not a valid initial. ".amxafa" works fine though. > > > Argonese (Argon=C3=A9s) gra'ine (arg/ine) > > Why not ".argine"? I was trying to keep the CCV'VCV structure for all of them.... > > Assamese (=E0=A6=85=E0=A6=B8=E0=A6=AE=E0=A7=80=E0=A6=AF=E0=A6=BC=E0=A6= =BE) sma'ine (asm/ine) > > Belarusian (=D0=91=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=B0=D1=80=D1=83=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B0=D1= =8F) ble'ine (bel/ine) > > Breton (brezhoneg) bre'ine (bre/ine) > > Chechen (=D0=BD=D0=BE=D1=85=D1=87=D0=B8=D0=B9=D0=BD =D0=BC=D0=BE=D1=82= =D1=82) tce'acu (che/cau) > > OK, don't let me stop you. :) Well, it's fun and all, but I'm not terrible interested in doing all of thi= s if people don't think it's worthwhile/won't be using it. I have much better, productive things to spend my time on. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636c5c2971a279204831f8d31 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/3/31 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>

I assume it was JCB's idea, since Lojban inherited it from Loglan= .
It's not as crazy as it may seem though, given that:

I meant the letter /c/ in general, not its usage in Lojba= n (which matches its usage in a number of other transcription systems).
=C2=A0
> as it could be, phonetically, /s, k, or
> tc/. =C2=A0My gut reaction is to go for the sound over the actual lett= er.

Ouch! What's the point of using the codes then?
<= div>
Because the codes make an excellent starting point. =C2= =A0If we leave the letters the same, regardless of pronunciation, we lose t= he autonymic component.
=C2=A0
> In terms of the ISO codes, the original idea (in my head, at least) wo= uld be
> to have the fu'ivla forms based on the ISO to as large as an exten= t as
> possible, but fully acknowledging that it might not always be.

If the transformation ISO -> fu'ivla is not univocal and prefe= rrably
reversible, it loses most of its appeal, at least for me.
<= div>
Fair enough, although it would actually be imposible to = do it this way, since at least some of the lang codes have illegal clusters= , or no vowels at all. =C2=A0Some of them will have to be tweaked to fit.
=C2=A0
> Developing these isn't really all that hard. =C2=A0Here's a sa= mple of what I came
> up with earlier, which took maybe 20-30 minutes. =C2=A0In all of the b= elow,
> everything before the ' is derived as much as possible from the la= nguage
> code, the second part from the language family ISO code.
> Language name in English (native name) fu'ivla (actual language IS= O
> code/language family ISO code)
> Afar (Afaraf) fra'afa (aar/afa)
> Albanian (Shqip) ski'ine (sqi/ine)
> Amharic (-amharinynya-) xma'afa (amh/afa)

This one fails. "xm" is not a valid initial. ".amxafa&= quot; works fine though.

> Argonese (Argon=C3=A9s) gra'ine (arg/ine)

Why not ".argine"?

I was tr= ying to keep the CCV'VCV structure for all of them....
=C2=A0=
> Assamese (=E0=A6=85=E0=A6=B8=E0=A6=AE=E0=A7=80=E0=A6=AF=E0=A6=BC=E0=A6= =BE) sma'ine (asm/ine)
> Belarusian (=D0=91=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=B0=D1=80=D1=83=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B0=D1= =8F) ble'ine (bel/ine)
> Breton (brezhoneg) bre'ine (bre/ine)
> Chechen (=D0=BD=D0=BE=D1=85=D1=87=D0=B8=D0=B9=D0=BD =D0=BC=D0=BE=D1=82= =D1=82) tce'acu (che/cau)

OK, don't let me stop you. :)

Wel= l, it's fun and all, but I'm not terrible interested in doing all o= f this if people don't think it's worthwhile/won't be using it.= =C2=A0I have much better, productive things to spend my time on.

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