From 3h9WzSwgSBlwLFJIQ8FF7CACN4FECHA7IG.ILAFID54HAIIAF8ALIOJM.6IG@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 16:07:14 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3h9WzSwgSBlwLFJIQ8FF7CACN4FECHA7IG.ILAFID54HAIIAF8ALIOJM.6IG@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nx708-0007Ww-OS for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:07:13 -0700 Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3sf184074pwi.16 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:07:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Gm/QJABS7GfsXfqLyhoUOnUps+pW6BRYBaGOQk9MUWs=; b=ZK1N41d5mkKwFTkRYSrpELswsP2VzD0kiBXE/hCIKZC8YHwznF8+oVsa/EsZHyUQGR 7gZZ+aHvqX1fBMJ0CReRvctbrek3j2z3rq/n/Hys0X4JnV/2cL6FjGh3zHnDLEw1uJ2G Y8dch6twlBTd5Fy92FUN/sDjGL3GmyR8wd+S4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; b=4v81WcLsJAGv6lyANGmGpvhy6IoebDuRs9gMN2aGm6eDydgfG0fyVJhLin7GEtmDqI 9OdFLdlh2VWWvLOcaOcFvaWEAZwPn9VdxLOGK1mERFcAB22uaZ5mtB8l5bJIzxzeFeBP +wWm1A157T/0uGN/HN2O58O33sXEu5HJV0br4= Received: by 10.115.100.14 with SMTP id c14mr29587wam.9.1270076807993; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:06:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.114.250.4 with SMTP id x4ls67370wah.3.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.138.5 with SMTP id l5mr73092wad.3.1270076805901; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.138.5 with SMTP id l5mr73091wad.3.1270076805852; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail8.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail8.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.10]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si1570928pzk.4.2010.03.31.16.06.45; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.10 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org) client-ip=69.17.117.10; Received: (qmail 5022 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2010 23:06:45 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail8.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 31 Mar 2010 23:06:45 -0000 Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nx6zj-0007Wc-IL for lojban@googlegroups.com; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:06:44 -0700 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:06:43 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] The CLL, Community Efforts, and An Apology From The Board Message-ID: <20100331230643.GG6084@digitalkingdom.org> References: <4BB0D4DF.2070501@gmail.com> <702226df1003291006o242c37a8q6bc5ea53b6e6377d@mail.gmail.com> <23298cb41003291406x5dc8a4faub2d8d21693f9c5fc@mail.gmail.com> <414121.54710.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <23298cb41003292314q6a4c6029u90c80f5dda2a2836@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003300557v741d06bar6ebc4ee5acbcd930@mail.gmail.com> <23298cb41003300646u2fde049fsa8e143914a54c20a@mail.gmail.com> <20100331221406.GC6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100331225824.GA520@alice.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20100331225824.GA520@alice.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.10 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/62f96e395a91e500 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/a9d4fa55ef7a459d Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Those all sound like pretty reasonable things to me, albeit a teensy bit premature. The next step is to get the current HTML/OpenOffice version into DocBook. I've no idea what's going on there; please talk to Remo at rdentato@gmail.com , or join the #cll IRC channel on freenode. -Robin On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 04:58:25PM -0600, Alan Post wrote: > Having access to the DocBook format of the CLL will be extremely > beneficial to me. I have wanted to add annotation, reword passages > I found confusing, and in general have some way of working with it > that allowed me to track my changes against a baseline. >=20 > Thank you for doing this, I look forward to building on this work. >=20 > As a small gesture to reciprocate, and to serve as an example of the > sort of thing I immediately mean, pg. 79 of .i la lojban. mo > contains a translation error: >=20 > http://lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/comp.html >=20 > do [cu] na'e sutra tavla mi [vau] > You are an other-than-quick talker (or) You are a slow talker. >=20 > do [cu] sutra na'e tavla mi [vau] > You are quickly other-than-talking (or) You are doing something > other-than-talking, quickly. >=20 > I believe both of these translations fail to account for the mi in > the x2 place of the bridi. >=20 > I know you're not talking about .i la lojban. mo in your text > below, but there are a small number of little things of this sort > in the CLL as well. When you are trying to learn, a little missed > detail like that can really interfere with understanding. >=20 > I would like to help on this project, and I have a specific edit I > would like to lobby for: I have trouble navigating the CLL based > on chapter names, because the metaphors don't resonate with me. I > wolud like to use the space available to improve the literal > description of what the chapter covers. >=20 > I'd like the opportunity to make a formal proposal on that topic, > and am happy to trade the ability to make a proposal for doing other > non-controversial work. >=20 > As I thumb through my copy of the book, I'd really like to improve > some of the tables as well. The one that compares letterrals to > letter words specifically grabs my attention as something that could > look much nicer. >=20 > May I help? What would be the next step in helping?=20 >=20 > -Alan >=20 > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 03:14:06PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > I am speaking officially on behalf of the LLG board in this email. > >=20 > > Since it's this mail that got the ball rolling again, I'll quote it > > before my reply: > >=20 > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 03:46:14PM +0200, Remo Dentato wrote: > > > 2010/3/30 Jorge Llamb=EDas > > >=20 > > > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 3:14 AM, Remo Dentato > > > > wrote: > > > > > BTW, I'm still waiting for an answer on wheter I could put the > > > > > PDF of the revised copy of CLL on the wiki. It has been months > > > > > now and I don't even know if the they met and deliberated on > > > > > the matter. > > > > > > > > Who did you ask? I don't see any objections arising as long as > > > > you label it correctly. In any case, if there is some objection, > > > > the worse that could happen is that it gets removed, so just put > > > > it there, that's what a wiki is for, you don't ask for > > > > permission for everything. > > > > > > The PDF was a typeset version of the revised CLL that is available > > > on jbotcan, with exactly the same invite to buy the printed > > > version from LLG. I just converted from HTML to PDF. > > >=20 > > > I put the PDF on the wiki after having asked on the IRC channel > > > but I had it removed in a matter of hours with the objection that > > > I had to ask for permission first. I can't remember to whom > > > exactly I wrote (I should have the email trail stored somewhere) > > > and I got the answer that the topic would have been discussed and > > > I would have had an official response from LLG. BTW, I also had > > > John Cowan supporting my request after I had sent a copy of the > > > PDF to him as the author. > >=20 > > (Remo and most of the people who worked on this new CLL version > > (hereafter "the new CLL team") and I have already discussed what I'm > > about to say, just FYI) > >=20 > > We are very, very sorry for how this played out. > >=20 > > We completely failed the community on this one. I also take a lot > > of personal responsibility[1], because as secretary, it is my job to > > make sure that everybody understands what is officially LLG and what > > isn't, and not only did I *way* over-react, but I did so without > > being in anything even vaguely approaching full possession of the > > facts of the matter. > >=20 > > We actually did basically decide back in October 2009 that the new > > CLL team's version was fine and we should do something with it, and > > then we dropped the ball. Again, very sorry. > >=20 > > In the process of failing to deal with this appropriately, we gave > > Remo, at least, the impression that the LLG does not support or want > > community projects. Nothing could possibly be farther from the > > truth! People's pet projects are the *lifeblood* of Lojban. We > > want more, not less. Don't come to us for permission, just do neat > > things! > >=20 > > (Well, if you're intending to do something that might look like The > > Official Word on something Lojbanic, as this was, please *do* come > > talk to us; we promise to try to be much more reasonable! Please do > > not let us be silent; keep bugging us. We're very busy, and we are > > not ignoring you on purpose!) > >=20 > > Back to the matter at hand. > >=20 > > The original idea was to let the new CLL team post their version, > > clearly marked as "not officiall". Instead, though, I've managed to > > rope them in to doing a project I've wanted done for *years*: > > converting the CLL into a decent source format that will generate > > either linked HTML or a book, cleanly, from one source. > >=20 > > To that end, here's what's going to happen: > >=20 > > 1. I'm giving the team the official sources of the CLL. They're > > going to produce a set of diffs between that and what they've done. > >=20 > > 2. The BPFK is going to deliberate over said diffs, and hopefully > > approve them. It should just by typos and stuff anyways. > >=20 > > 3. The team is going to turn what they've got into DocBook format, > > without changing any of the content/text. > >=20 > > 4. That docbook will become the new official CLL source. It, and > > the HTML generated from it, will be posted to lojban.org, free for > > anyone to download and use as they see fit. > >=20 > > This represents a complete reversal of our previous stance against > > releasing the official source; the community is big enough and > > robust enough that the time for us to be worried about people > > ripping us off by, I dunno, schisiming and publishing the CLL for > > their own profit, or something?, is long past. We are one > > community, and no-one's going to stop buying CLLs from the LLG just > > because the official source is available. In the incredibly > > unlikely event that it *does* make a real difference to our cash > > flow, we'll talk to the community about that, but I'm not actually > > worried. > >=20 > > My sincerest thanks to the new CLL team for what they've already > > done, and for taking on the further work I've asked of them. > >=20 > > They would, however, appreciate it if other people volunteered to > > help; it's not an easy or small task. Contact me or Remo if you're > > interested. > >=20 > > -Robin > >=20 > > [1]: Some personal notes/perspective; feel free to skip, since it > > got both longer and whinier than I intended: > >=20 > > I've been bitching for *years* about how no-one aronud here does > > anything, and the new CLL team comes along and does a bunch of > > stuff (that I'd been meaning to do myself some day!), and instead > > of happily welcoming them and trying to get them to do a bunch > > *more* work :), I shut them down. > >=20 > > And then, to top it all off, the board discussed it privately, > > mostly agreed that we were OK with it... and then completely > > forgot to actually *do* anything. > >=20 > > I'm quite angry at myself over this, and I really can't apologize > > enough. This is exactly the sort of thing that caused me to > > become a board member in the first place, and I hate that I became > > (hopefully briefly) the very thing I was once fighting against. > >=20 > > My excuse is that I really *have* been personally overwhelmed, and > > simply haven't had the time to give Lojban decent attention. I > > will try to do better, and to find more people to help me. > >=20 > > --=20 > > They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." > > And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something > > other than the default outcome?" See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz > > http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ > >=20 > > --=20 > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@google= groups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lo= jban?hl=3Den. > >=20 >=20 > --=20 > te djuno lo do sevzi >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something other than the default outcome?" See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.