From 3kOOzSwoJBnMcVfj.dfcRjXdRZc.TfdcfaSReXffXcVXiflgj.Tfd@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 17:07:04 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f155.google.com ([209.85.222.155]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3kOOzSwoJBnMcVfj.dfcRjXdRZc.TfdcfaSReXffXcVXiflgj.Tfd@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nx7w5-0002Vo-5m for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:07:04 -0700 Received: by pzk27 with SMTP id 27sf266067pzk.2 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:06:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=r/pxiXjI7HL+vf9iqxBJJIAotLcITxwl5HcXRkA1JEg=; b=S6SZeMyjdy+LvXFHGIUU71RAxmBmH/YRUHrammhUHzdDcxWzrpbPy4OQKKpGU36Vtu SRpS6UN7sPh43dynHh5XCRDKlWIb4o2JUfrvA1EHDEmh9cjHCdnXeXcfD6+/+NeWVilH gFozyCl9QqLdkt6aT/Wj8RqfC4oH2akFy6D54= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version :content-type:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; b=ZsclC8yvUtx9woZ8yuwdBii7g4HJu9QhCG/19khv8aI0NPD1HmxpPssJ5Fc9hbBtXs fltUl3HreXUneSBJ8YBSzZRqElrTJiMHt8lXThr7itz5sfz1Qj1oo+FcMsPglfSRojH8 skvQ8/B+H8C4eZvagumRf/yH3Cn5GagFXwDVA= Received: by 10.115.100.14 with SMTP id c14mr32169wam.9.1270080400516; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:06:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.115.117.28 with SMTP id u28ls75557wam.1.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.248.7 with SMTP id v7mr76953wah.18.1270080397481; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.248.7 with SMTP id v7mr76952wah.18.1270080397451; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f178.google.com (mail-yw0-f178.google.com [209.85.211.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si1582716pzk.8.2010.03.31.17.06.36; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.211.178; Received: by mail-yw0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 8so429343ywh.6 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.176.25 with SMTP id d25mr697347anp.156.1270080395893; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([190.97.37.224]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm1910597ywh.30.2010.03.31.17.06.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BB3E38E.4040503@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:06:38 -0300 From: Leo Molas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; es-AR; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla References: <4BB3A8E7.3000500@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig5AB75F1CFA8D0207F4ABBFCA" X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=leos.molas@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: leos.molas@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/91775d06f9fc8f46 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig5AB75F1CFA8D0207F4ABBFCA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El 31/03/2010 07:13 p.m., Christopher Doty escribi=C3=B3: > 2010/3/31 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas > >=20 > I wouldn't say it's impossible. You could have as the rule something=20 > like code xyz becomes fu'ivla xaybzc, where a, b, and c are > functions of x, y, z such that xaybzc always results in a valid > fu'ivla. The problem is that the result would usually be hardly > anything recognizable. >=20 >> I was trying to keep the CCV'VCV structure for all of them.... >=20 > Even more restrictive. >=20 >=20 > True, but also more internally consistent. This is going to bring problems in the future, if you do them all. Besides the obvious collisions, there are going to be very similar fu'ivla (making them confusing), and, what xorxes said, some of them would be hardly recognizable. What I propose is: 1- Let the fu'ivla have another form (for example CVCCV'V). 2- Make fu'ivla type 3 (I think) with a prefix (like gug or gu'e) I'm more inclined to the last one, since with the prefix you can tell really fast if it's a country or not (since with the CCV'VCV structure, there might be some other fu'ivla with that structure). xorxes said: > My own preference is to go along the lines of:=20 > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/experimental+cultural+gismu >=20 > (That list covers mostly only European and South American=20 > cultures/countries, however.) >=20 > I don't really like creating new gismu unless I'm going to use them.=20 > The Alice translation, for example, uses the unofficial gismu > "nuzlo", for "New Zeland", and I have used a few others like spero, > norgo, xorvo, talno. >=20 > It's not such a good idea to invent a gismu for a language/culture > you are not at least somewhat familiar with, because you ran the risk > of creating things like "jungo" where "jonxo" might have been a lot=20 > better. (Or things like "ketco", which I still find really weird > after all these years.) >=20 Using experimental gismu has many many problems... 1- They are experimental (ta da! waiting my invitation to the tautology club!) 2- If we could invent all the gismu for all the countries, we'll have (how many countries exists? 400? 500?) about a 25% of the gismu in that particular area. 3- If we don't (as now) we aren't culturally neutral. 4- xorxes said CCV'VCV is restrictive... well, gismu is more restrictive.= lojbab said: > h. I just came up with the right answer. Go to Google Groups and > search for "cultural gismu criteria". Most of the messages are > relevant (and of course those I wrote are most relevant %^) Just > "cultural gismu" in quotes gives others. Again, to find out the > "why" of most language design decisions, focus on stuff before 1995, > the earlier the better. >=20 >=20 >> Everything I have seen there makes it look like it is something >> that has been, and still is, ongoing. >=20 > I *can* answer that. Because anyone and everyone can change the > wiki, on any given topic it is heavily weighted towards whatever the > most recent editors are thinking. If there is institutional memory > therein, it is probably in the pages that haven't been changed in > several years. >=20 > More importantly, most LLG policy predates the wiki and the only > things that get put onto wiki pages are things that people want to > write. Thus the page on "cultural gismu" has only peoples' > criticisms of it, but doesn't have anything about the reasoning that > was used to put them into the language (which has numerous stages, > starting with work done by JCB 40-odd years ago) Well, I can't question all this yet since the rate: lojbab time in lojban --------------------- (over) leos time in lojban =2E.. IT'S OVER *9000*!!!!!! I have to read the past discussions, but I'm particularly sure it's going to be tough to convince me :P mu'o mi'e .leos. --=20 My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com --------------enig5AB75F1CFA8D0207F4ABBFCA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJLs+OSAAoJEGPqAjdF26uE/qAIALjWI6PGKmBczANV2Um8F/hV ZpKbFwCCTJa7O0sFezLNbb6KpLmoJ/FYEjUJ7bWYABqDRxpFxNv/HEVnZ/OKgSWF xdrdFLROTHS4kiBkW/xoxwAAsqxpsVB+sVhkcK+5jJYqWqVPiuO8cDxp/BHwQo89 yZhrEi8WKxw94uEJYwTAkq09rS6X6Nssc3Gir/J+Gmv4gYoiGEEnLAFmon4T0RTg rTUV0v2YdukiYnN4Bq1pjqYKUR571qXqiOnuYsTOQGpUlIKQdQEGLZXdvnnyuXnl wB0jpiem9MNCQDmKmLgz04UPgcbBuvw3sZe9JQhL2k1fhpxJh33HEL2zlReX36c= =/Ty3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig5AB75F1CFA8D0207F4ABBFCA--