From 3YuqzSwcJBkwsCs2186u0owz.q20z2xpo1u22uzsu52836.q20@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 17:36:17 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3YuqzSwcJBkwsCs2186u0owz.q20z2xpo1u22uzsu52836.q20@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nx8OF-0004Mb-P3 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:36:17 -0700 Received: by gwb1 with SMTP id 1sf730187gwb.16 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:36:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=23JUFKTje2HqjfbZPRLjHI0nzGFXBMWo9rxVHzchiF0=; b=JgldYwkU4q+Q8RbiKOMMTI6U3fPsYrljKFInLxDYHTBgbAdBbBJT60iDBWhoXVBoo5 wpbqg1wRW2m8nOQOult8jUgSpSoTRVKSJZoIeAz1S1vRhLOf0uxJxP7qRw6AT7fexZHh Bx2aAvwCGlX5pkxf4M31jDhq+IOuSOrKXUjLQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=jDMZhOeptjslDIdNLPA3iLXXEYflTfdS7oJhYx2EmfpXuvtIHkldV8FKnN/WWXizbe +vH//wAHd2RozsylGQSjIEZ0M8ySaTB9ebfbTD/Vq1dT2IW2dSu8Lqj3v445QURAVZjA NMvw8Uzd6xSymqfOV5/Fhl2ku+oYBVf1EqdDY= Received: by 10.91.93.10 with SMTP id v10mr93054agl.18.1270082146595; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:35:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.68 with SMTP id o4ls528037bkd.1.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.48.214 with SMTP id s22mr17134bkf.26.1270082144560; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.48.214 with SMTP id s22mr17133bkf.26.1270082144502; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f47.google.com (mail-ww0-f47.google.com [74.125.82.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v26si7389225bkt.3.2010.03.31.17.35.43; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.47; Received: by wwb13 with SMTP id 13so457003wwb.6 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:35:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.2.209 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:35:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BB3A8E7.3000500@gmail.com> References: <4BB3921C.50308@lojban.org> <4BB3A8E7.3000500@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:35:42 -0600 Received: by 10.216.186.10 with SMTP id v10mr30819wem.111.1270082143174; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/ace9215cc54eda38 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e649d606fac2d20483220a19 --0016e649d606fac2d20483220a19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Leo Molas wrote: > El 31/03/2010 04:43 p.m., Christopher Doty escribi=F3: > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 11:19, Bob LeChevalier > > wrote: > > > > Christopher Doty wrote: > > > > I just wanted to sort of condense what we have been talking > > about here in a more compact fashion. Essentially, the idea > > would be to (I've ordered the list logically, not temporally): > > > > 1) Chuck the cultural gismu (this seems to be an idea that has > > been around for awhile anyway, we just need good replacements). > > > > 2) Develop a new, much smaller set of gismu to cover things tha= t > > were previously included in the cultural gismu, such as > > reflecting language/cultural/nationality in some respect. > I had a feeling the LLG would frown on 1 and 2, but I know that fu'ivla (an= d lujvo) are not only allowed to be created, they are encouraged. So, for thi= s project, accept 1) as a "not happening, at least not this decade, if ever", and for 2), make *lujvo* (in preference to fu'ivla) to cover "x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3" and etc., and the whole project is fine, I expect= . > > > > 3) For countries/territories: develop fu'ivla for the member > > states of the UN, along with other "important" areas (importanc= e > > being based on an as-yet undetermined criterion). > > > > 4) For languages: develop fu'ivla based on the ISO code for the > > languages present in the 639-1 set of codes, but using their > > code as of the 639-3 revision. (I think it would be cool to us= e > > the language family codes, as presented here > > ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639-2#Collective_language_codes), > > when filling out the fu'ivla.) > > > > 5) For religions: develop gismu that cover the world's major > > religions (probably with some artificial cut-off for number of > > adherents), (along with another couple gismu for "atheist" and > > something like "native beliefs/practices of x2"?) > > > > 6) For land masses: develop fu'ivla for either the seven > > continents as conventionally understood, or else for the major > > tectonic plates (which largely correlates with the continents, > > but leads to a bit more precision with a few more fu'ivla). If > > we did go the plate route, we'd have to again have some sort of > > artificial cut-off TBD. > > > > Hopefully that summary accurately represents the discussion thu= s > > far. > > > > Since it seems like this project has stagnated in the past, > > > > > > It has not stagnated. It has been rejected. It will continue to b= e > > rejected. > > > > The gismu are baselined. The baseline isn't going to be changed > > because someone doesn't like something or thinks it could have been > > done better. We are more than 15 years past the point where people > > were willing to even consider changing the list. > > > > We officially and expressly DON'T want the language redesigned by > > fiat, in whole or in part. This isn't supposed to be a language > > design project any more, but a language-using project. (Bearing in > > mind that the byfy work defining the cmavo has never been completed= , > > but there is a strong bias even there against change). > > > > The goal is to turn the baselined language over to users, who will > > *use* the language, which will then evolve according to actual > > usage. There will cease to be a language prescription, in favor of > > language description. > > > > If people need a gismu that doesn't exist, they can of course inven= t > > one ad hoc, though the intent is that they invent fu'ivla, and only > > a demonstrably useful fu'ivla would ever be made into a gismu (ther= e > > is provision that assigning gismu might be done officially at some > > future point, but only after seeing a pattern of actual usage). > > > > Fu'ivla space is up for grabs, and people can choose to > > systematically create fu'ivla. If you limit your project to that, = I > > certainly won't fight it (but I don't promise to ever support it > > either). > > > > > > > But, > > > > before I do any of that, I'd like to make sure that a) people > > seem generally of the opinion that some change like this is > > probably a good idea, > > > > > > 20 years ago, it might have been. Not now. > > > > My apologies if this comes across as rude, but I don't know how to > > put it any more politely. The question has been repeatedly debated= , > > and even though there have always been people VERY unhappy with the > > cultural gismu, whatever may be wrong with them is not important > > enough to change LLG's fundamental philosophy about the language > > ("strong baseline" and "let usage decide"). > > > > > > I do not find it particularly rude, and am happy that I can think about > > this as it would be a waste of time. Am I missing some part of the sit= e > > that would have let me know that this idea has already been proposed an= d > > rejected over and over? Everything I have seen there makes it look lik= e > > it is something that has been, and still is, ongoing. > > > > I must say I find the disconnect between the claims of cultural neutral > > and violation of those claims in the very vocabulary of the language to > > be completely weird. Illogical, even. > > > > I must say I agree with that last part. Some countries having a gismu > and others not isn't cultural neutrality. But also it's important to > maintain this gismu list. > > Perhaps all of this should be done, as lojbab said, with fu'ivla, and > encourage all the people to use this ones instead of the existing gismu, > hoping all lojbanist find this gismu as awful as we do. > > The project should not be stopped; it only needs a change of course. > > mu'o mi'e .leos. > > -- > My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com > My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e649d606fac2d20483220a19 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Leo Molas <leos.molas@gmail.c= om> wrote:
El 31/03/2010 04:43 p.m., Christ= opher Doty escribi=F3:
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 11:19, Bob L= eChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org
> <mailto:lojb= ab@lojban.org>> wrote:
>
> =A0 =A0 Christopher Doty w= rote:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I just wanted to sort of condense wha= t we have been talking
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 about here in a more compact fashion. =A0Essentially, = the idea
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 would be to (I've ordered the list log= ically, not temporally):
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 1) Chuck the cultu= ral gismu (this seems to be an idea that has
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 been around for awhile anyway, we just need good repla= cements).
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2) Develop a new, much smaller se= t of gismu to cover things that
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 were previously inc= luded in the cultural gismu, such as
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 reflecting language/cultural/nationality in some respe= ct.
=A0
I had a feeling the LLG would frown on 1 and 2, but I know that fu'= ;ivla (and lujvo) are not only allowed to be created, they are encouraged. = So, for this project, accept 1) as a "not happening, at least not this= decade, if ever", and for 2), make *lujvo* (in preference to fu'i= vla) to cover "x1 reflects language x2 in aspect x3" and etc., an= d the whole project is fine, I expect.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 3) For countries/territories= : develop fu'ivla for the member
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 states of the = UN, along with other "important" areas (importance
> =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 being based on an as-yet undetermined criterion).
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 4) For languages: develop fu'ivla based on= the ISO code for the
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 languages present in the 639-= 1 set of codes, but using their
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 code as of the 639-= 3 revision. =A0(I think it would be cool to use
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 the language family codes, as presented here
> = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639-2= #Collective_language_codes),
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 when filling out the fu'ivla.)
>
> =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 5) For religions: develop gismu that cover the world's maj= or
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 religions (probably with some artificial cut-off= for number of
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 adherents), (along with another coup= le gismu for "atheist" and
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 something like "native beliefs/practices of x2&qu= ot;?)
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 6) For land masses: develop fu'iv= la for either the seven
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 continents as conventionall= y understood, or else for the major
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 tectonic plates (which largely correlates with the con= tinents,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 but leads to a bit more precision with a f= ew more fu'ivla). =A0If
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 we did go the plate rou= te, we'd have to again have some sort of
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 artificial cut-off TBD.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 Hopefully that summary accurately represents the discussion thus
>= ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 far.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Since it seems like = this project has stagnated in the past,
>
>
> =A0 =A0 It has not stagnated. =A0It has been rejected.= =A0It will continue to be
> =A0 =A0 rejected.
>
> =A0 = =A0 The gismu are baselined. =A0The baseline isn't going to be changed<= br>> =A0 =A0 because someone doesn't like something or thinks it cou= ld have been
> =A0 =A0 done better. =A0We are more than 15 years past the point where= people
> =A0 =A0 were willing to even consider changing the list.>
> =A0 =A0 We officially and expressly DON'T want the langua= ge redesigned by
> =A0 =A0 fiat, in whole or in part. =A0This isn't supposed to be a = language
> =A0 =A0 design project any more, but a language-using proj= ect. =A0(Bearing in
> =A0 =A0 mind that the byfy work defining the cm= avo has never been completed,
> =A0 =A0 but there is a strong bias even there against change).
>=
> =A0 =A0 The goal is to turn the baselined language over to users, = who will
> =A0 =A0 *use* the language, which will then evolve accordi= ng to actual
> =A0 =A0 usage. =A0There will cease to be a language prescription, in f= avor of
> =A0 =A0 language description.
>
> =A0 =A0 If pe= ople need a gismu that doesn't exist, they can of course invent
>= =A0 =A0 one ad hoc, though the intent is that they invent fu'ivla, and= only
> =A0 =A0 a demonstrably useful fu'ivla would ever be made into a gi= smu (there
> =A0 =A0 is provision that assigning gismu might be done = officially at some
> =A0 =A0 future point, but only after seeing a pa= ttern of actual usage).
>
> =A0 =A0 Fu'ivla space is up for grabs, and people can choo= se to
> =A0 =A0 systematically create fu'ivla. =A0If you limit yo= ur project to that, I
> =A0 =A0 certainly won't fight it (but I d= on't promise to ever support it
> =A0 =A0 either).
>
>
> =A0 =A0 > But,
>
= > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 before I do any of that, I'd like to make sure tha= t a) people
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 seem generally of the opinion that some= change like this is
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 probably a good idea,
>
>
> =A0 =A0 = 20 years ago, it might have been. =A0Not now.
>
> =A0 =A0 My ap= ologies if this comes across as rude, but I don't know how to
> = =A0 =A0 put it any more politely. =A0The question has been repeatedly debat= ed,
> =A0 =A0 and even though there have always been people VERY unhappy wit= h the
> =A0 =A0 cultural gismu, whatever may be wrong with them is no= t important
> =A0 =A0 enough to change LLG's fundamental philosop= hy about the language
> =A0 =A0 ("strong baseline" and "let usage decide")= .
>
>
> I do not find it particularly rude, and am happy = that I can think about
> this as it would be a waste of time. =A0Am I= missing some part of the site
> that would have let me know that this idea has already been proposed a= nd
> rejected over and over? =A0Everything I have seen there makes it= look like
> it is something that has been, and still is, ongoing. >
> I must say I find the disconnect between the claims of cultura= l neutral
> and violation of those claims in the very vocabulary of t= he language to
> be completely weird. =A0Illogical, even.
>

I must say I agree with that last part. Some countries havi= ng a gismu
and others not isn't cultural neutrality. But also it'= ;s important to
maintain this gismu list.

Perhaps all of this sho= uld be done, as lojbab said, with fu'ivla, and
encourage all the people to use this ones instead of the existing gismu,hoping all lojbanist find this gismu as awful as we do.

The project= should not be stopped; it only needs a change of course.

mu'o m= i'e .leos.

--
My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpres= s.com
My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com




--
mu'o mi&= #39;e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
<= br>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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