From 3TvCzSwgJBj4ljy.twjslrfnq.htrqtogfslttlqjlwtzux.htr@groups.bounces.google.com Wed Mar 31 18:01:29 2010 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3TvCzSwgJBj4ljy.twjslrfnq.htrqtogfslttlqjlwtzux.htr@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nx8mh-0005aV-Hc for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:01:28 -0700 Received: by pvb32 with SMTP id 32sf72415pvb.16 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:01:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UkA2sB9zInAhYVxvqv4i8T+VUD1Nuql5c3u8M/+2p0U=; b=WYzm7De+6dnq8jX+4P5n+rzvC7wHFIJ2AFRW7nYRi11qCqznX6FCyTeQ1uOK12jnut SwpKxEtxA6SBClVbgJIPhltQAivj1AdjxBfrVApHDcz9QaHspA0qgupLupQEgr+2cb3h rjCRal++bO5xSayr7xi8zE49H4qT//82mJAJo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=RB2wFKGO2pjvXwmvZBQUt1pUmbv09viiROgWErqW65pArApDyQAsm+Lf2z8OGnT5oV o9e9ZlQYnA9M72nDfHCyImcORBjiw93TmSfsxthOQRBCxJ0KrUY8BdVrsSSP1UtAwBFh 7xkRok9k45QxaMmjRc5+tdNMNJcx3G/3iY3h0= Received: by 10.142.2.13 with SMTP id 13mr219730wfb.3.1270083662842; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:01:02 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.2.23 with SMTP id 23ls251786wfb.3.p; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.85.6 with SMTP id n6mr1314695wfl.3.1270083661420; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.85.6 with SMTP id n6mr1314694wfl.3.1270083661380; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com (mail-pw0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si1595167pzk.6.2010.03.31.18.01.00; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.44; Received: by pwi10 with SMTP id 10so668598pwi.31 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:01:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:00:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BB3921C.50308@lojban.org> <4BB3A8E7.3000500@gmail.com> From: Oren Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 09:00:40 +0800 Received: by 10.142.8.13 with SMTP id 13mr436632wfh.210.1270083660090; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/1e2d9be7f01ebaf9 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When I first mentioned using country and language codes, I was thinking the "lojbanization" would just be spelling out the codes. No need for humans to come along and reshape them into CCVVCV boxes or anything. Of course, fu'ivla are useful too. Here's the places to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-1_codes (languages, with auton= yms) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_world (territories, with autonyms), or ISO 3166 And for religion/philosophy, I support lujvo creation, because they're actually distinct in ideas and practices in self-defined ways, not just distributed over geographic/semantic space like language or territory. on another note: "Bearing in mind that the byfy work defining the cmavo has never been completed, but there is a strong bias even there against change." ...is this true? I thought the byfy was still planning on eventually doing their job... are they in fact strongly biased against the idea? co'o mi'e korbi On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 08:35, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Leo Molas wrote: >> >> El 31/03/2010 04:43 p.m., Christopher Doty escribi=F3: >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 11:19, Bob LeChevalier > > > wrote: >> > >> > =A0 =A0 Christopher Doty wrote: >> > >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I just wanted to sort of condense what we have been ta= lking >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 about here in a more compact fashion. =A0Essentially, = the idea >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 would be to (I've ordered the list logically, not temp= orally): >> > >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 1) Chuck the cultural gismu (this seems to be an idea = that has >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 been around for awhile anyway, we just need good repla= cements). >> > >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2) Develop a new, much smaller set of gismu to cover t= hings that >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 were previously included in the cultural gismu, such a= s >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 reflecting language/cultural/nationality in some respe= ct. > > > I had a feeling the LLG would frown on 1 and 2, but I know that fu'ivla (= and > lujvo) are not only allowed to be created, they are encouraged. So, for t= his > project, accept 1) as a "not happening, at least not this decade, if ever= ", > and for 2), make *lujvo* (in preference to fu'ivla) to cover "x1 reflects > language x2 in aspect x3" and etc., and the whole project is fine, I expe= ct. >> >> > >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 3) For countries/territories: develop fu'ivla for the = member >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 states of the UN, along with other "important" areas (= importance >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 being based on an as-yet undetermined criterion). >> > >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 4) For languages: develop fu'ivla based on the ISO cod= e for the >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 languages present in the 639-1 set of codes, but using= their >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 code as of the 639-3 revision. =A0(I think it would be= cool to use >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 the language family codes, as presented here >> > >> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639-2#Collective_language_codes), >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 when filling out the fu'ivla.) >> > >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 5) For religions: develop gismu that cover the world's= major >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 religions (probably with some artificial cut-off for n= umber of >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 adherents), (along with another couple gismu for "athe= ist" and >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 something like "native beliefs/practices of x2"?) >> > >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 6) For land masses: develop fu'ivla for either the sev= en >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 continents as conventionally understood, or else for t= he major >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 tectonic plates (which largely correlates with the con= tinents, >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 but leads to a bit more precision with a few more fu'i= vla). =A0If >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 we did go the plate route, we'd have to again have som= e sort of >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 artificial cut-off TBD. >> > >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Hopefully that summary accurately represents the discu= ssion thus >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 far. >> > >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Since it seems like this project has stagnated in the = past, >> > >> > >> > =A0 =A0 It has not stagnated. =A0It has been rejected. =A0It will cont= inue to be >> > =A0 =A0 rejected. >> > >> > =A0 =A0 The gismu are baselined. =A0The baseline isn't going to be cha= nged >> > =A0 =A0 because someone doesn't like something or thinks it could have= been >> > =A0 =A0 done better. =A0We are more than 15 years past the point where= people >> > =A0 =A0 were willing to even consider changing the list. >> > >> > =A0 =A0 We officially and expressly DON'T want the language redesigned= by >> > =A0 =A0 fiat, in whole or in part. =A0This isn't supposed to be a lang= uage >> > =A0 =A0 design project any more, but a language-using project. =A0(Bea= ring in >> > =A0 =A0 mind that the byfy work defining the cmavo has never been comp= leted, >> > =A0 =A0 but there is a strong bias even there against change). >> > >> > =A0 =A0 The goal is to turn the baselined language over to users, who = will >> > =A0 =A0 *use* the language, which will then evolve according to actual >> > =A0 =A0 usage. =A0There will cease to be a language prescription, in f= avor of >> > =A0 =A0 language description. >> > >> > =A0 =A0 If people need a gismu that doesn't exist, they can of course = invent >> > =A0 =A0 one ad hoc, though the intent is that they invent fu'ivla, and= only >> > =A0 =A0 a demonstrably useful fu'ivla would ever be made into a gismu = (there >> > =A0 =A0 is provision that assigning gismu might be done officially at = some >> > =A0 =A0 future point, but only after seeing a pattern of actual usage)= . >> > >> > =A0 =A0 Fu'ivla space is up for grabs, and people can choose to >> > =A0 =A0 systematically create fu'ivla. =A0If you limit your project to= that, I >> > =A0 =A0 certainly won't fight it (but I don't promise to ever support = it >> > =A0 =A0 either). >> > >> > >> > =A0 =A0 > But, >> > >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 before I do any of that, I'd like to make sure that a)= people >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 seem generally of the opinion that some change like th= is is >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 probably a good idea, >> > >> > >> > =A0 =A0 20 years ago, it might have been. =A0Not now. >> > >> > =A0 =A0 My apologies if this comes across as rude, but I don't know ho= w to >> > =A0 =A0 put it any more politely. =A0The question has been repeatedly = debated, >> > =A0 =A0 and even though there have always been people VERY unhappy wit= h the >> > =A0 =A0 cultural gismu, whatever may be wrong with them is not importa= nt >> > =A0 =A0 enough to change LLG's fundamental philosophy about the langua= ge >> > =A0 =A0 ("strong baseline" and "let usage decide"). >> > >> > >> > I do not find it particularly rude, and am happy that I can think abou= t >> > this as it would be a waste of time. =A0Am I missing some part of the = site >> > that would have let me know that this idea has already been proposed a= nd >> > rejected over and over? =A0Everything I have seen there makes it look = like >> > it is something that has been, and still is, ongoing. >> > >> > I must say I find the disconnect between the claims of cultural neutra= l >> > and violation of those claims in the very vocabulary of the language t= o >> > be completely weird. =A0Illogical, even. >> > >> >> I must say I agree with that last part. Some countries having a gismu >> and others not isn't cultural neutrality. But also it's important to >> maintain this gismu list. >> >> Perhaps all of this should be done, as lojbab said, with fu'ivla, and >> encourage all the people to use this ones instead of the existing gismu, >> hoping all lojbanist find this gismu as awful as we do. >> >> The project should not be stopped; it only needs a change of course. >> >> mu'o mi'e .leos. >> >> -- >> My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com >> My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. 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