From 3n4G2SwkJBiM9MC.QNRS9FL9HK.BNLKNIA9MFNNFKDFQNTOR.BNL@groups.bounces.google.com Fri Apr 02 16:45:59 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3n4G2SwkJBiM9MC.QNRS9FL9HK.BNLKNIA9MFNNFKDFQNTOR.BNL@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NxqYl-0006Qk-QF for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:45:59 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf2384428gyd.16 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:45:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AYb1bY13XVgsDaYHRSIrygReRICIxMXoNzFyrjxTzYI=; b=10RcqLITnq/XtRdRcsXZQTay24wxRm7QjDTsk8TEzf4MDcAVtOREB0fCQX6rKWczaA K1Zan1/34S+BYrkh1xRsYktElRDCoavzNu/zm9QCCMlZe6VVstmDvFUiEO1d9ya2I+rS KVamsBN+7B49PlwEaJ6FeVslcz2KiX7dlGOf4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=xb6t5BKzlRr6uKtlA+s9wUAwD2E+S/bb9t6sJk7h2zu0NWsgoGbL2JMliKJ1Tdr49g Rk8/xmAOaP7nd95i/RBNcC+MUGOW+MTSBXhwOIS9NxJvCvTM0cNULbY5DUjXSZwO8n+D gK+sxmEv5s3NkPjTzS0NpsW6rGIb2URWiFFtA= Received: by 10.91.209.13 with SMTP id l13mr386597agq.47.1270251935295; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:45:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.60.1 with SMTP id n1ls766688fah.2.p; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.5.16 with SMTP id 16mr192605fat.6.1270251932622; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.5.16 with SMTP id 16mr192604fat.6.1270251932562; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f214.google.com (mail-bw0-f214.google.com [209.85.218.214]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si735527fxm.13.2010.04.02.16.45.31; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.214 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.214; Received: by mail-bw0-f214.google.com with SMTP id 6so1279201bwz.33 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.5.140 with SMTP id 12mr3554705bkv.34.1270251931417; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.67] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a11sm81757158bkc.9.2010.04.02.16.45.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BB68197.9010206@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 00:45:27 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com CC: michael.everson@gmail.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: la .alis. References: <425e4ac21002011729t4b51c16epd167881bb4293ce2@mail.gmail.com> <20100202020339.GA1952@digitalkingdom.org> <2D15035A-1466-4678-864D-B0FA3CA1CBF4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2D15035A-1466-4678-864D-B0FA3CA1CBF4@gmail.com> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.214 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f6eb5d08fee85068 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e266ccc7b415855d Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A belated contribution from me to this thread, because I felt obliged to re= ad every message in it and related threads before posting. Two remarks, one= on audiovisual isomorphism and the other on user-selected orthography. Audiovisual isomorphism It seems to me that the invocation of the principle of audiovisual isomorph= ism in support of objections to typographically rich settings of Lojban hav= e been tending to the ludicrous. The principle of audiovisual isomorphism i= s that within the rules that define Lojban, every significant element in th= e phonology has a counterpart in the orthography and every significant elem= ent in the orthography has a counterpart in the phonology. But that princip= le holds only within the rules that define Lojban. Consider the paralinguis= tics of spoken Lojban -- pitch, tempo, loudness, voice quality, and so fort= h: nobody insists on speaking Lojban in a staccato monotone in defence of a= udiovisual isomorphism, because everybody quite rightly realizes that these= are *paralinguistic* and outside the scope of Lojban phonology. Similarly,= we should understand that typography is paralinguistic and outside the sco= pe of Lojban orthography. User-selected orthography Hopefully, technology will make it increasingly possible for readers to sel= ect their preferred orthography. (For a language such as English, this woul= d be an immense boon to learning readers, who would gain and extra year or = more to learn and play in, that would otherwise have been learnt in masteri= ng current English orthography.) My preferences would be these: 1. Acute accent for stress. Capital letters not adjacent to another capital= letter (or perhaps to any other letter at all) are, like numerals, logogra= phic (for abu, by, etc.), as in xorxes's usage. Other capital letters could= be used for typographic function. 2. Have <.> when flanked by letters signify /./, and leave other <.> for ty= pographic (or between numerals, logographic) functions.=20 3. Treat opening and closing quotation marks as logographs for _lu_ and _li= 'u_. 4. Treat all other punctuation as purely typographical. 5. For aesthetic and space-saving reasons, change {i|u}{a|e|i|o|u} to {y|w}= {a|e|i|o|u} and {a|e|o}{i|u} to {a|e|o}{y|w}, and get rid of all apostrophe= s from the orthography. (These preferences are purely hypothetical, I should add, because I can't r= eadily foresee my actually returning to reading Lojban.) --mie And --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.