From 3i5K2SwoJBiAHAKO.IKH6OCI6EH.8KIHKF76JCKKCHACNKQLO.8KI@groups.bounces.google.com Fri Apr 02 17:58:14 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3i5K2SwoJBiAHAKO.IKH6OCI6EH.8KIHKF76JCKKCHACNKQLO.8KI@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nxrge-0001gC-9x for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:58:14 -0700 Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5sf3047957vws.16 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:58:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:x-enigmail-version :content-type:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=FHVGL5W8vjwcC6ReYbqbJK6uy8QrzbWaRoI6R1DJ6hc=; b=qnK4tEhnDRBtxcS7NfwaABvRSqFeMQUWALPDuc85sOWtCaLsOFvKpBnrj1Ap+CnxMO lqVcGZylqHWDp+AuIQ6wUfgk2UR5iz4UusxGGR04tmRtSvHGNhXpvIdSCCCEMehWwUGz V/7ATJ+JRVjzlbiySSJR7DX268exwzfi9N02k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:x-enigmail-version:content-type :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; b=y6rO4B96/2iMsiJ/gHeH/knn/E6pZ68J0Fu+D7l9hXIvOSHIOI2hs1Dd/WHbDI102q jp6O1PNWXdShKTD5MN6Tauw/AFk8bI+IoCEvBO2HhGH8A184qJvHNUeAJOZs/TN0kTTf pZBnWehlYQVh5HRcuEnDVDJDiGVcbye7C41PI= Received: by 10.220.124.135 with SMTP id u7mr246439vcr.38.1270256267400; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:57:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.47.17 with SMTP id l17ls680131vcf.5.p; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.171.67 with SMTP id g3mr725144vcz.27.1270256265756; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.171.67 with SMTP id g3mr725143vcz.27.1270256265727; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f186.google.com (mail-yw0-f186.google.com [209.85.211.186]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si23311321vws.0.2010.04.02.17.57.44; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.186 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.211.186; Received: by ywh16 with SMTP id 16so1661879ywh.0 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.160.9 with SMTP id i9mr3057725ybe.243.1270256264262; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([190.97.37.224]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20sm2609887ywh.18.2010.04.02.17.57.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BB6928D.7000307@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 21:57:49 -0300 From: Leo Molas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; es-AR; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban group Subject: [lojban] Open approach (was "cultural fu'ivla") X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigE5FBDB078C91B5DB26C26254" X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.186 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=leos.molas@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: leos.molas@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ddb610b9695dff92 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e36ad17c296cf4b6 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigE5FBDB078C91B5DB26C26254 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I want to summarize (again) all of this. I think it has anything new, so I'm sorry if it isn't useful. (I hope it will :) There would be two approaches for coining language fu'ivla: 1- use the native way of referring to the language. 2- use the ISO codes. The former is the nicer one, since most of the fu'ivla are coined from this. However, it's unpractical. We can't coin them all, since there isn't a list with all the native words (and all the other problems chris said). The later isn't that culturally unbiased, and has the problem that most of the resulting fu'ivla won't resemble the name of the language. But is the one that we can use to coin them all :) pierre abat said: > The way language names are coined in natural languages is completely=20 > different. People who are interested in a particular language (hereinaf= ter=20 > Pelonian) find out what the Pelonians call their language (which requir= es=20 > learning some Pelonian) and what their neighbors the Almonians call it.= Then=20 > they decide what to call it in, say, English. Then they write reports a= bout=20 > Pelonian and other people learn that there is such a language. They may= , on=20 > learning more Pelonian, figure out that they used the wrong word to nam= e the=20 > language ("Auca", for instance, is an exonym meaning "enemy", so they a= re now=20 > called "Waorani" or other spellings thereof). >=20 > I do not see a need for coining a type-4 or even type-3 fu'ivla for Baa= tonum=20 > or Babatana until some Lojbanist is interested in those languages. Leav= e them=20 > at type 1. >=20 This is true... we don't have the need to coin them all. Nevertheless, it would be great to have them, or at least, a way to have them. (If we use it an algorithm, like xorxes', this is possible, without much work.) I thought of others benefits of using an algorithm: - With a little program, we can have the whole list. - That can work the other way: given a language fu'ivla, and another program, we can have additional information about it. Like: bangacu'a -> aca -> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=3Daca One benefit of using fu'ivla is that there is no need to have only one word to one meaning (or meaning isomorphism :), so, we can have two fu'ivla for languages. xorxes said: > You can think of "banbubu'a" not as meaning "x1 is Baatonum" but > rather as meaning "x1 is the language with ISO-code 'bba'". >=20 > Then if Baatonum for some reason became a hosehold word in > Lojbanistan, and people found "banbubu'a" too cumbersome, a more > friendly name could be coined. So, basically, Swedish can be sfe'ero as well as bansuve'e. Language autonyms (and perhaps with family attached) can be used along with the algorithm version. Also, the algorithm way can be extrapolated to countries. We can use the ISO 3166-1 list, that have codes of two letters for every country: http://www.iso.org/iso/country_codes/iso_3166_code_lists/english_country_= names_and_code_elements.htm Examples (using prefix gug-, gugd-): AR (Argentina) -> gugdaru US (United States) -> gugdusu This isn't such a long list (246 countries), so we could make a fu'ivla for everyone, but I think that would be a ton of unnecessary work. We should have them, and, if we need a more friendly name, we coin it. mu'o mi'e .leos. --=20 My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com --------------enigE5FBDB078C91B5DB26C26254 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJLtpKUAAoJEGPqAjdF26uEozkH/3eWsWAkjx+k12WRzzUSOtJX aYjCk+cjKNZSkBiL16vSqLIG1lFiZwqmSUxWRjuqPJuGM15XHZUeItFlP7OGPxor P34fidQr/5QLm2SI/ecXxY1lJMf31lavJGxyQLLeSd4C0yiKOQwUNYBxI62WWQOW iDSNLADhni6DML1Sf+vn7oaC63GJKPFs18bR083hhFrnxd5NlpQ9RM/lH3KJEFWC TaaaSz5fNLzP+b7ASUWoVE3NZZnQQdYL/ppyFR21EMfouxTjk+O59oKcbd1cup99 +u8+B7Bd0a2iBzTT/OPtsKcj3Sf6r9yHUfOryjKg0fnnQOmu1nPsnX2D39Zdue8= =8aCy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigE5FBDB078C91B5DB26C26254--