From 382O3SwoJBloKMGEA49JAK8E2AD.4GEDGB32F8GG8D68JGMHK.4GE@groups.bounces.google.com Sat Apr 03 08:51:41 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <382O3SwoJBloKMGEA49JAK8E2AD.4GEDGB32F8GG8D68JGMHK.4GE@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Ny5dI-0002L1-90 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:51:41 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf3392697ywh.28 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:51:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=Q/fnxACKFSqd0fhxSZOou8mX4bdHNdy+VOYyxpKxiiI=; b=t1z16qqvwU+4jHpUoiVILih3cYVlPFgUj0c20EXZ9dLnovdJLar7rSSXIgxysJ/w0p fPl1D+hdzD+icK4IE2X3h8YQvOJdsLKtnNmGuxDgNlFJlcUkkawtvO2QiVNLqq0RSjXU UR3T3ozqN1MgDYYHVO/ky1OrqMnhYSDcmRITs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=SF3mGzwJFHGPSgVjpsgFmL9uQlT7eBG1kM2or8NkDUpVJ9Qmtb+GaAhbVUJnAxRnpY McpG/RlOWx/2zf/+1RAxkH5+SodpLitZUO417ZStJuuImnLohKNKVvPX/N2wL767iKow xf8hgb9XSvj9GRPUtpBQzme03I8Ahb5hYxrHw= Received: by 10.91.59.11 with SMTP id m11mr456329agk.39.1270309875210; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:51:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.248.13 with SMTP id v13ls642748agh.7.p; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.150.2 with SMTP id c2mr5028629ago.13.1270309874111; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.150.2 with SMTP id c2mr5028627ago.13.1270309874067; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f172.google.com (mail-gy0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si10457yxe.1.2010.04.03.08.51.13; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.172; Received: by mail-gy0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 4so1380561gyh.17 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:51:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 08:50:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201004012357.49645.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Christopher Doty Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 08:50:52 -0700 Received: by 10.101.28.7 with SMTP id f7mr8491351anj.218.1270309872870; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] So what do we say for Swedish? (was "Summary: Cultural fu'ivla") To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/b7cc2efa3fc3ba64 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/b55e874c851a8ddb Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636b2b064ba24020483571032 --001636b2b064ba24020483571032 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Christopher Doty > wrote: > > So, I kind of distracted from this, but here is what I had come up with= . > > Putting the language families first, and having alternate forms for > > different clusters, does work a lot better. > > Also, this is a bit weird, since six of these eight languages are > > Niger-Congo, so also isn't quite a random sample, > > Apparently Niger-Congo is the family with the most members, so that's > not too surprizing. > > So, you want to create a prefix or series of prefixes for each of (how > many? more than a hundred?) families? > Is it really worth going to all that trouble? What's the advantage, > over just using bang-, ban-, baur-? I don't think it would take 100, but I'm not sure of the specific number; i= n part, this is because our decisions about how to group things could change the number. As I mentioned yesterday, we could split Niger-Congo into Bant= u and, basically, "other" Niger-Congo. Likewise with Chinese (which, linguistically, is either a worthless term, or a family and not a language)= . There are only five or six major ones on the list that I've been looking at, but if we keep to the highest level classifications possible, it shouldn't be too bad. I think using the language families has any number of advantages. First, I was envisioning this as something that would be both useful to linguists an= d easily learnable. I think a list of alphabetized language names in Lojban would be really scary, and possibly worthless, if they all started exactly the same (granted, you could sort some other way, but still). An alphabetized list with family names at the beginning, though, would actuall= y group languages together by family. Plus, I really just think learning words which are half the same as any other word for any other language is going to make learning language names REALLY difficult, and thus likely cause these to never be adopted. > > but it does illustrate, as > > do the examples from .xorxes., the idea of different initial elements. > So, > > Niger-Congo might be {nirk} when the ISO is V initial, {nirko} when it = is > VV > > initial, etc.... > > If you do that, how do you distinguish code "aab" from code "oab"? > "nirko'abu" could be either. (At least if they both happen to be in > the same family.) And why would you want to change the vowel? > Er, right, I think I mistyped. {nirk} would probably be for any vowel-initial root (I haven't tried this out yet, but that is my sense). And I didn't change the vowel, I put it on the wrong line, I think: {nirko'abu} would be, in the system I proposed earlier, for language code abu, not aab. If we take {nirk} for any vowel-initial root, we'd have nirka'abV here. > aaa -> nirka'a'a' (cf. banga'a'a) > > aab -> nirko'abu (cf. banga'abu) > > aba -> nirkaba or ... (cf. bangabu'a) > > I could do "bangaba" too. The reason I prefer "bangabu'a"is that this > way every language name has four syllables. But if giving three > syllables to languages with VCV codes does not violate neutrality, > that can be done. I don't think length violates neutrality--even if it does, we can't do much about it given the restrictions of Lojban phonotactics. > > abb -> ... bangabubu > > baa -> ... banbu'a'a > > bab -> babnicV or nirbabV (cf. banbu'abu) > > "nirbabV" works with a nir- family code, but it wouldn't work with > other family codes. > > bba -> ... banbubu'a > > bbb -> tagbVbVbV (cf. banbububu) > > tag- won't work for codes that begin with voiceless consonants. > Then tak- before a voiceless; or, language family names are carefully constructed so as to always end in a sonorant. Or some use their longer fo= r here (tagnukVkVkV, say, for kkk). Or, the language family names are done i= n such a was to always have something that would make a nasty cluster. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636b2b064ba24020483571032 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote= :
> So, I kind of distracted from this, but here is what I had come up wit= h.
> =A0Putting the language families first, and having alternate forms for=
> different clusters, does work a lot better.
> Also, this is a bit weird, since six of these eight languages are
> Niger-Congo, so also isn't quite a random sample,

Apparently Niger-Congo is the family with the most members, so that&#= 39;s
not too surprizing.

So, you want to create a prefix or series of prefixes for each of (how
many? more than a hundred?) families?
Is it really worth going to all that trouble? What's the advantage,
over just using bang-, ban-, baur-?

I don&#= 39;t think it would take 100, but I'm not sure of the specific number; = in part, this is because our decisions about how to group things could chan= ge the number. =A0As I mentioned yesterday, we could split Niger-Congo into= Bantu and, basically, "other" Niger-Congo. Likewise with Chinese= (which, linguistically, is either a worthless term, or a family and not a = language). =A0There are only five or six major ones on the list that I'= ve been looking at, but if we keep to the highest level classifications pos= sible, it shouldn't be too bad.

I think using the language families has any number of a= dvantages. =A0First, I was envisioning this as something that would be both= useful to linguists and easily learnable. =A0I think a list of alphabetize= d language names in Lojban would be really scary, and possibly worthless, i= f they all started exactly the same (granted, you could sort some other way= , but still). =A0An alphabetized list with family names at the beginning, t= hough, would actually group languages together by family. =A0Plus, I really= just think learning words which are half the same as any other word for an= y other language is going to make learning language names REALLY difficult,= and thus likely cause these to never be adopted.
=A0
> but it does illustrate, as
> do the examples from .xorxes., the idea of different initial elements.= =A0So,
> Niger-Congo might be {nirk} when the ISO is V initial, {nirko} when it= is VV
> initial, etc....

If you do that, how do you distinguish code "aab" from code= "oab"?
"nirko'abu" could be either. (At least if they both happen to= be in
the same family.) And why would you want to change the vowel?

Er, right, I think I mistyped. =A0{nirk} would proba= bly be for any vowel-initial root (I haven't tried this out yet, but th= at is my sense). =A0And I didn't change the vowel, I put it on the wron= g line, I think: {nirko'abu} would be, in the system I proposed earlier= , for language code abu, not aab. =A0If we take {nirk} for any vowel-initia= l root, we'd have nirka'abV here.

> aaa -> nirka'a'a' (cf. banga'a'a)
> aab -> nirko'abu (cf. banga'abu)
> aba -> nirkaba or ... (cf. bangabu'a)

I could do "bangaba" too. The reason I prefer "bangabu= 'a"is that this
way every language name has four syllables. But if giving three
syllables to languages with VCV codes does not violate neutrality,
that can be done.

I don't think length = violates neutrality--even if it does, we can't do much about it given t= he restrictions of Lojban phonotactics.
=A0
> abb -> ... bangabubu
> baa -> ... banbu'a'a
> bab -> babnicV or nirbabV (cf. banbu'abu)

"nirbabV" works with a nir- family code, but it wouldn'= t work with
other family codes.
=A0
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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