From 3SG23SwoJBrgqsmkgafpgqekYgj.amkjmhZYlemmejcepmsnq.amk@groups.bounces.google.com Sat Apr 03 09:31:30 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f198.google.com ([209.85.217.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3SG23SwoJBrgqsmkgafpgqekYgj.amkjmhZYlemmejcepmsnq.amk@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Ny6Fp-0004ZP-59 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:31:29 -0700 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22sf4176575gxk.4 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:31:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=uuK+um17hx/zfZNRCHEIaYwxYXp5IDZrU36VojUUXUQ=; b=2Azw7yc4znXxTxQJdl5VBqEays6iL/z8gbI20Vwd+jCypO3naGkfGJbCtHRaecHl4w oCnc2ebOQ28Tmtxbp+e4vNXU8t+DgRggWrKpahCJI1/DwMFYejoFGGOlkLX3snM2EpsF ACLRTdD2nGPC8Np6wezWEgzqC0AGE6UEJalXE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=dgPnoLHsFIQVxh3CcrM51duCDj+hG1iI8hEkTdtkL7OxAYzGE4WrIwHuJpu1yp6biJ bYM2MV6Fkw1hgMk10yWI8d5hEJdkwL33nPxyIOGhyddi14Pv7dLfpbaZzw1O2tMfv9dG uG9aegcXbdk9Fyx5RfbXmnq+T/6pqA/nHJYDs= Received: by 10.151.60.12 with SMTP id n12mr21652ybk.77.1270312264405; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:31:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.93.10 with SMTP id v10ls646552agl.3.p; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.49.14 with SMTP id b14mr5989777agk.14.1270312263540; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.49.14 with SMTP id b14mr5989768agk.14.1270312263304; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f226.google.com (mail-gx0-f226.google.com [209.85.217.226]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si306500yxe.6.2010.04.03.09.31.02; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.226 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.226; Received: by mail-gx0-f226.google.com with SMTP id 26so36885gxk.17 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:31:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 09:30:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201004012357.49645.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Christopher Doty Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 09:30:42 -0700 Received: by 10.101.134.3 with SMTP id l3mr9079355ann.200.1270312262100; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] So what do we say for Swedish? (was "Summary: Cultural fu'ivla") To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.226 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/b7cc2efa3fc3ba64 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/da13d371f6a19172 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5be0822e9d70483579f5a --001636c5be0822e9d70483579f5a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/3 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Doty > wrote: > > > > I don't think it would take 100, but I'm not sure of the specific numbe= r; > > Wikipedia says ISO 639-5 has 114 codes for language families: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639 Yeah, but there are codes for any number of subfamilies included in that number. So, for example, there is a Niger-Congo code, but also a Bantu code; there is an Afro-Asiatic code, but also codes for Berber, Semitic, etc. We wouldn't need to have all of these; we'd just pick a level (highes= t or otherwise) and only use it. We'd need (totally educatedly guessing) 20 max, with maybe a couple more for things like Basque that aren't clearly placed in a family. > > in > > part, this is because our decisions about how to group things could > change > > the number. As I mentioned yesterday, we could split Niger-Congo into > Bantu > > and, basically, "other" Niger-Congo. Likewise with Chinese (which, > > linguistically, is either a worthless term, or a family and not a > language). > > There are only five or six major ones on the list that I've been looki= ng > > at, but if we keep to the highest level classifications possible, it > > shouldn't be too bad. > > But if we go with ISO for languages, it's hard to justify using a > different arbitrary preference for families. I don't think it's THAT hard to justify (although a little bit, maybe :p). The language family name is something that people won't really need to loo= k up languages by, as such, but could still tell you what family a language belongs to. Plus, while most of the ISO codes for language families are pretty good, some are really stupid (Austronesian is "map"???); I'm not sur= e there's a disadvantage to changing that, especially since it will show up a bunch of times in the system. > > I think using the language families has any number of advantages. Firs= t, > I > > was envisioning this as something that would be both useful to linguist= s > and > > easily learnable. I think a list of alphabetized language names in > Lojban > > would be really scary, and possibly worthless, if they all started > exactly > > the same (granted, you could sort some other way, but still). An > > alphabetized list with family names at the beginning, though, would > actually > > group languages together by family. Plus, I really just think learning > > words which are half the same as any other word for any other language = is > > going to make learning language names REALLY difficult, and thus likely > > cause these to never be adopted. > > It's only the first out of four syllables that is common to all. And > the other three syllables correspond each to one of the letters of the > code, so if you know the code you know the fu'ivla, and vice versa. > Right, but because of the various forms of {bangu}, the alphabetization is still going to be wonky; personally, I would never, ever want to look at a list of any number of things that all start with the same syllable; it woul= d make it very hard to find anything. And, really, a single syllable that's the same is not the issue--it's that it's the FIRST syllable. This makes words seem much more similar, because of the way speech is processed, than = a list of words that all ended in the same syllable. It would present a rather difficult issue in terms of learning. And, in terms of being able t= o read a paper comparing three languages and keeping straight which is which, then if they were all more different from each other. Chris --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636c5be0822e9d70483579f5a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/3 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrot= e:
>
> I don't think it would take 100, but I'm not sure of the speci= fic number;

Wikipedia says ISO 639-5 has 114 codes for language families:
http://e= n.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639

Yeah, but = there are codes for any number of subfamilies included in that number. =A0S= o, for example, there is a Niger-Congo code, but also a Bantu code; there i= s an Afro-Asiatic code, but also codes for Berber, Semitic, etc. =A0We woul= dn't need to have all of these; we'd just pick a level (highest or = otherwise) and only use it. =A0We'd need (totally educatedly guessing) = 20 max, with maybe a couple more for things like Basque that aren't cle= arly placed in a family.
=A0
> in
> part, this is because our decisions about how to group things could ch= ange
> the number. =A0As I mentioned yesterday, we could split Niger-Congo in= to Bantu
> and, basically, "other" Niger-Congo. Likewise with Chinese (= which,
> linguistically, is either a worthless term, or a family and not a lang= uage).
> =A0There are only five or six major ones on the list that I've bee= n looking
> at, but if we keep to the highest level classifications possible, it > shouldn't be too bad.

But if we go with ISO for languages, it's hard to justify using a=
different arbitrary preference for families.

I don't think it's THAT hard to justify (although a little bit, m= aybe :p). =A0The language family name is something that people won't re= ally need to look up languages by, as such, but could still tell you what f= amily a language belongs to. =A0Plus, while most of the ISO codes for langu= age families are pretty good, some are really stupid (Austronesian is "= ;map"???); I'm not sure there's a disadvantage to changing tha= t, especially since it will show up a bunch of times in the system.
=A0
> I think using the language families has any number of advantages. =A0F= irst, I
> was envisioning this as something that would be both useful to linguis= ts and
> easily learnable. =A0I think a list of alphabetized language names in = Lojban
> would be really scary, and possibly worthless, if they all started exa= ctly
> the same (granted, you could sort some other way, but still). =A0An > alphabetized list with family names at the beginning, though, would ac= tually
> group languages together by family. =A0Plus, I really just think learn= ing
> words which are half the same as any other word for any other language= is
> going to make learning language names REALLY difficult, and thus likel= y
> cause these to never be adopted.

It's only the first out of four syllables that is common to all. = And
the other three syllables correspond each to one of the letters of the
code, so if you know the code you know the fu'ivla, and vice versa.
=

Right, but because of the various forms of= {bangu}, the alphabetization is still going to be wonky; personally, I wou= ld never, ever want to look at a list of any number of things that all star= t with the same syllable; it would make it very hard to find anything. =A0A= nd, really, a single syllable that's the same is not the issue--it'= s that it's the FIRST syllable. =A0This makes words seem much more simi= lar, because of the way speech is processed, than a list of words that all = ended in the same syllable. =A0It would present a rather difficult issue in= terms of learning. =A0And, in terms of being able to read a paper comparin= g three languages and keeping straight which is which, then if they were al= l more different from each other.

Chris

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