From 3eJq3SwoJBhYEGA84y3D4E28w47.yA87A5xw92AA2702DAGBE.yA8@groups.bounces.google.com Sat Apr 03 12:44:33 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3eJq3SwoJBhYEGA84y3D4E28w47.yA87A5xw92AA2702DAGBE.yA8@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Ny9Gd-0000QC-0Z for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 12:44:33 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf3149027gyd.16 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 12:44:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:to:reply-to:subject:in-reply-to:x-mailer:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url :x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=1zE69/GB3WiYcOAitkIVmJSHW7qAhznPGFflVMdhW14=; b=ANEgRKLIuIlwr4DNYwrSgvS0VIv3ynjqbSXf7+09XkPpv7qbIqKQQMtN87FJfh5+pb 6Bh/7G/5xNxIrq+BWPld6VHrcPpntOLrdOzyi1qm0AyaBZqibnQLJAR6Rh2lqTPip4WA qTnD/EVTQO33wuCvGnFPucp+ESA2fsHt8RhIA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:to:reply-to:subject :in-reply-to:x-mailer:mime-version:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=OQIYzUB+vCfuNJT+W7hLhDsC9QmXVZRcu5yUleSBZbdDSkkYjcdPxGCGZVGylR/mkC LqHB8mLvqW/D5xpUEbAxwJEKuhGpY0jNRItRvF7sNQJLZGhkhJqeVYSu8MR3hbDsdYyS dlPqLfo4C6ThXQOXfKYgAURe3xakSrm41Mvro= Received: by 10.91.209.13 with SMTP id l13mr486136agq.17.1270323832293; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 12:43:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.160.26 with SMTP id m26ls668877ago.4.p; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 12:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.152.18 with SMTP id z18mr5409544agd.10.1270323830581; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 12:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.152.18 with SMTP id z18mr5409541agd.10.1270323830496; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 12:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f213.google.com (mail-gx0-f213.google.com [209.85.217.213]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si192339yxe.11.2010.04.03.12.43.49; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 12:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.213 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.213; Received: by gxk5 with SMTP id 5so2191638gxk.6 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 12:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.118.15 with SMTP id v15mr9143336anm.58.1270323829201; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 12:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.palm.com ([173.152.177.250]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm2514921yxe.19.2010.04.03.12.43.42 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 03 Apr 2010 12:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4bb79a74.1602be0a.2ca6.ffffb503@mx.google.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 12:43:38 -0700 From: "Christopher Doty" To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Open approach (was "cultural fu'ivla") In-Reply-To: <248150.99542.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Palm webOS v1.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.213 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ddb610b9695dff92 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/125f5531cd0ea803 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Alternative__boundary__1270323823702 --Alternative__boundary__1270323823702 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C5land has a rather different history than Tibet, I think, as it's always = been considered a separate territory, where the case with Tibet is disputed= by the Chinese government. Up until a few years ago, cruise ships could ev= en sell stuff duty-free if just going between Finland and =C5land. But, yeah, politics are going to interfere with any possibility, i'm afraid= . Chris -- Sent from my Palm Pre On Apr 3, 2010 12:13, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:=20 I wonder why the Aland Islands (which belong to Finland)=20 have their own country code, but Tibet doesn't.  Could it=20 be that politics are interfering, albeit indirectly, even with=20 our decidedly non-political exercise? Needless to say, this is a comment on ISO, and not on=20 Leo's great work. totus ----- Original Message ---- > From: Leo Molas <leos.molas@gmail.com> > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 2:17:01 PM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Open approach (was "cultural fu'ivla") >=20 > El 03/04/2010 10:44 a.m., Jorge Llamb=EDas escribi=F3: > On Sat, Apr 3, 2010=20 > at 10:14 AM, Leo Molas <> href=3D"mailto:leos.molas@gmail.com"&g= t;leos.molas@gmail.com>=20 > wrote: >>> >>> AR -> gugde'aru >>> US=20 > -> gugde'usu >>> AO -> gugde'a'o >>> LU ->=20 > gugdelu'u >>> RW -> gugderuve >>> CL ->=20 > gugdeculu >>> SE (Sweden) -> gugdesu'e >> >>=20 > Thanks xorxes in correcting it :) but I have a doubt: why=20 > {gugdelu'u} >> for example, doesn't break down? >=20 >=20 > Because "gd" is not a valid initial, so "gu gdelu'u" is not possible. >=20 > There is no other possibility. The only stressed syllable is LU, and > it=20 > contains a consonant cluster, so it is a brivla, and since it is > not a=20 > lujvo form, it is a valid fu'ivla form. If it was "gugde lu'u" > it would=20 > have the stress on GUG, stress is very important to determine >=20 > brivla. >=20 >> I have to admit that the method doesn't give us a=20 > beautiful result >> (neither a resembling one), and I even didn't like=20 > at all at first, but >> it's the plainest, it can live among other=20 > methods easily, and doesn't >> need too much work (if I, or whoever,=20 > make a program for it). What do >> you (jbopre) think? >=20 >=20 > It's even simpler than the method for languages, because it uses the >=20 > same prefix for all cases. The resulting forms, with four syllables, > are=20 > not too long, and (unlike type-3 fu'ivla) they do sound like > ordinary=20 > lojban words. It's true that they don't resemble the name of > the=20 > country, but the code is fairly transparent. >=20 > I have to say I=20 > didn't like the idea of using the ISO-codes to form > fu'ivla at first,=20 > but now I think it's not such a bad idea at all, as > long as the method=20 > used is simple and transparent. >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 >=20 Well, I did a little python script that generates the country=20 > fu'ivla. This is a extract from the output: IO ->=20 > gugde'i'o BN -> gugdebunu BG -> gugdebugu BF ->=20 > gugdebufu BI -> gugdebu'i KH -> gugdekuxe CM ->=20 > gugdecumu CA -> gugdecu'a I also did one that generates a=20 > dictionary-like definition: gugde'i'o =3D x1 is the country with the=20 > code ISO-3166 "IO" (British Indian Ocean Territory) for people=20 > x2 gugdebunu =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 "BN"=20 > (Brunei Darussalam) for people x2 gugdebugu =3D x1 is the country with=20 > the code ISO-3166 "BG" (Bulgaria) for people x2 gugdebufu =3D x1 is the=20 > country with the code ISO-3166 "BF" (Burkina Faso) for people=20 > x2 gugdebu'i =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 "BI" (Burundi)=20 > for people x2 gugdekuxe =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166=20 > "KH" (Cambodia) for people x2 gugdecumu =3D x1 is the country with the=20 > code ISO-3166 "CM" (Cameroon) for people x2 gugdecu'a =3D x1 is the=20 > country with the code ISO-3166 "CA" (Canada) for people x2 I extract=20 > the info from > target=3D_blank >http://www.iso.org/iso/list-en1= -semic-3.txt (it's in the=20 > attachments too, as iso-countries.txt). country-fuhivla1.py is a python=20 > program that gives the first map above, and its output is in the file=20 > result.txt country-fuhivla2.py is almost the same, but it gives the=20 > dictionary-like output. All of it is in resultdic.txt The language=20 > fu'ivla can be parsed as well, only with a few modifications (but it would be=20 > a really really bigger output file). I want to insist in the fact that=20 > this is a really easy way to coin the fu'ivla, it treat all countries the=20 > same way (so is culturally neutral), and can exist among other fu'ivla coined=20 > with another method. mu'o mi'e .leos. --=20 My lojban journal: > href=3D"http://learninglojban.wordpress.com" target= =3D_blank=20 > >http://learninglojban.wordpress.com My personal blog: > href=3D"http://leomolas.tumblr.com" target=3D_blank= =20 > >http://leomolas.tumblr.com --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --Alternative__boundary__1270323823702 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C5land has a rather different history than Tibet, I think, as it's always = been considered a separate territory, where the case with Tibet is disputed= by the Chinese government. Up until a few years ago, cruise ships could ev= en sell stuff duty-free if just going between Finland and =C5land.

B= ut, yeah, politics are going to interfere with any possibility, i'm afraid.=

Chris
<= br>
-- Sent from my Palm Pre

On Apr 3, 2010 12:13, A. PIEKARSKI <= ;totus@rogers.com> wrote:

I wonder why the Aland Islands (which = belong to Finland)=20
have their own country code, but Tibet doesn't.  Could it=20
be that politics are interfering, albeit indirectly, even with=20
our decidedly non-political exercise?

Needless to say, this is a comment on ISO, and not on=20
Leo's great work.

totus



----- Original Message ----
> From: Leo Molas <leos.molas@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 2:17:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Open approach (was "cultural fu'ivla")
>=20
> El 03/04/2010 10:44 a.m., Jorge Llamb=EDas escribi=F3:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010=20
> at 10:14 AM, Leo Molas <> href=3D"mailto:leos.molas@gmail.co= m">leos.molas@gmail.com>=20
> wrote:
>>>
>>> AR -> gugde'aru
>>> US=20
> -> gugde'usu
>>> AO -> gugde'a'o
>>> LU ->=20
> gugdelu'u
>>> RW -> gugderuve
>>> CL ->=20
> gugdeculu
>>> SE (Sweden) -> gugdesu'e
>>
>>=20
> Thanks xorxes in correcting it :) but I have a doubt: why=20
> {gugdelu'u}
>> for example, doesn't break down?
>=20
>=20
> Because "gd" is not a valid initial, so "gu gdelu'u" is not possib= le.
>=20
> There is no other possibility. The only stressed syllable is LU, a= nd
> it=20
> contains a consonant cluster, so it is a brivla, and since it is
> not a=20
> lujvo form, it is a valid fu'ivla form. If it was "gugde lu'u"
> it would=20
> have the stress on GUG, stress is very important to determine
>=20
> brivla.
>=20
>> I have to admit that the method doesn't give us a=20
> beautiful result
>> (neither a resembling one), and I even didn't like=20
> at all at first, but
>> it's the plainest, it can live among other=20
> methods easily, and doesn't
>> need too much work (if I, or whoever,=20
> make a program for it). What do
>> you (jbopre) think?
>=20
>=20
> It's even simpler than the method for languages, because it uses t= he
>=20
> same prefix for all cases. The resulting forms, with four syllable= s,
> are=20
> not too long, and (unlike type-3 fu'ivla) they do sound like
> ordinary=20
> lojban words. It's true that they don't resemble the name of
> the=20
> country, but the code is fairly transparent.
>=20
> I have to say I=20
> didn't like the idea of using the ISO-codes to form
> fu'ivla at first,=20
> but now I think it's not such a bad idea at all, as
> long as the method=20
> used is simple and transparent.
>=20
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>=20
>=20
Well, I did a little python script that generates the country=20
> fu'ivla.
This is a extract from the output:

IO ->=20
> gugde'i'o

BN -> gugdebunu

BG -> gugdebugu

BF ->=20
> gugdebufu

BI -> gugdebu'i

KH -> gugdekuxe

CM ->=20
> gugdecumu

CA -> gugdecu'a


I also did one that generates a=20
> dictionary-like definition:


gugde'i'o =3D x1 is the country with the=20
> code ISO-3166 "IO" (British
Indian Ocean Territory) for people=20
> x2

gugdebunu =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 "BN"=20
> (Brunei
Darussalam) for people x2

gugdebugu =3D x1 is the country with=20
> the code ISO-3166 "BG" (Bulgaria) for
people x2

gugdebufu =3D x1 is the=20
> country with the code ISO-3166 "BF" (Burkina Faso)
for people=20
> x2

gugdebu'i =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 "BI" (Burundi)= =20
> for
people x2

gugdekuxe =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166=20
> "KH" (Cambodia) for
people x2

gugdecumu =3D x1 is the country with the=20
> code ISO-3166 "CM" (Cameroon) for
people x2

gugdecu'a =3D x1 is the=20
> country with the code ISO-3166 "CA" (Canada) for
people x2

I extract=20
> the info from > target=3D_blank >http://www.iso.org/iso/list= -en1-semic-3.txt
(it's in the=20
> attachments too, as iso-countries.txt).

country-fuhivla1.py is a python=20
> program that gives the first map above,
and its output is in the file=20
> result.txt

country-fuhivla2.py is almost the same, but it gives the=20
> dictionary-like
output. All of it is in resultdic.txt

The language=20
> fu'ivla can be parsed as well, only with a few
modifications (but it would be=20
> a really really bigger output file).

I want to insist in the fact that=20
> this is a really easy way to coin the
fu'ivla, it treat all countries the=20
> same way (so is culturally neutral),
and can exist among other fu'ivla coined=20
> with another method.

mu'o mi'e .leos.

--=20
My lojban journal: > href=3D"http://learninglojban.wordpress.com" ta= rget=3D_blank=20
> >http://learninglojban.wordpress.com
My personal blog: > href=3D"http://leomolas.tumblr.com" target=3D_bl= ank=20
> >http://leomolas.tumblr.com

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@google= groups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lo= jban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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