From 3HqW3SwUKBsY5056430sq34.o0yx0vnmzs00sxqs30614.o0y@groups.bounces.google.com Sat Apr 03 13:29:43 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3HqW3SwUKBsY5056430sq34.o0yx0vnmzs00sxqs30614.o0y@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Ny9yN-0003Gt-8R for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:29:43 -0700 Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5sf4451186vws.16 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:29:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=gWoQ6VthwPQSbkpS0cPKkmXfrP8Xcm2tFZYfKhSVhUo=; b=SMVzbCuEiJQKhN7/MwjQSEshHTitwLLxlveUdms98bcBWQ4muXtTwKqS7iDpZvHLoR Eh0QxzVhL1wlIQJ8xTFurWIyng9ADzcuU/3daBziKasRUOsWaS+wchrrXP7cIuA/jQJf vT+cyqi0BoS+6Wi1QVSH/kMB905FM1ommp5m4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=rkbAGvwfdUg89febZ1ttPrwuFC3VYu5GyEKvZ15D+3tFm+dwWbmZ4nSbku4i8K4K34 pHdwDsl2WZVSpo5A9+P7XfRKDh8oBPwrhZNiNJSb+d9o/Dw2RZqWDISOfGUSGkAquewy yOhElUq2e+hpkvuW0z1b5yCuZjR879XvEn1io= Received: by 10.220.107.165 with SMTP id b37mr305717vcp.51.1270326558616; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:29:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.174.133 with SMTP id t5ls862627vcz.2.p; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.74.69 with SMTP id t5mr990521vcj.14.1270326556880; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.74.69 with SMTP id t5mr990520vcj.14.1270326556824; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com (web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.37.190]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 31si25598475vws.4.2010.04.03.13.29.15; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 206.190.37.190 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of totus@rogers.com) client-ip=206.190.37.190; Received: (qmail 42670 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Apr 2010 20:29:15 -0000 Message-ID: <452719.41761.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: glfzBNYVM1mF4mvrymHqZBRKUnCLfiRnrHzlYVHLwbPBNv1 za9brwjII6OkBOPiCSNHqIBMFIv9uum48MwjWq.6R1IE0j87MLCeALwvXppI 5i7OTMYkcdjulgX74HdCbAJ6JW9Hh4JGp2jlRcHqwx8j1n9DRMqZjAKlQ8aj U06GgpX0n5VEZN_LE71yL7r4ZNkn0ge4U.pd1Y6Q5Jm67kC5fAyDL4X5._Df BT2p9EA19xhZfCgu5mQzW2mp6Et.vD9.HD.XdmN6xO9lB0vDsiKNLsHDE1_Y GyDr2R5DxbTPeJSszUSdifVFcu8w0.sLv Received: from [99.229.170.85] by web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:29:15 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/324.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <4bb79a74.1602be0a.2ca6.ffffb503@mx.google.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 13:29:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "A. PIEKARSKI" Subject: Re: [lojban] Open approach (was "cultural fu'ivla") To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <4bb79a74.1602be0a.2ca6.ffffb503@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 206.190.37.190 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of totus@rogers.com) smtp.mail=totus@rogers.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@rogers.com X-Original-Sender: totus@rogers.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ddb610b9695dff92 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/fb0b814d38022e0f Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1699297301-1270326555=:41761" --0-1699297301-1270326555=:41761 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ____________________________________________________________ Actually, even China doesn't dispute that Tibet was once independant.=A0 Th= e=20 Aland Islands never were. However, imagine a discourse in Lojban about Tibetan history - or independa= nce. How strong would your arguements for independance be if you did not even ha= ve=20 a name for Tibet?=A0 Surely this is a case of Sapir-Whorf in practice. Obviously, we need to be able to handle such situations.=A0 An ISO code has= =20 been suggested for Tibet but presumably rejected by the ISO people. totus -- Sent from my Palm Pre > ________________________________ On Apr 3, 2010 12:13, A. PIEKARSKI wrote:=20 > >I wonder why the Aland Islands (which belong to Finland)=20 >have their own country code, but Tibet doesn't.=A0 Could it=20 >be that politics are interfering, albeit indirectly, even with=20 >our decidedly non-political exercise?=20 > >Needless to say, this is a comment on ISO, and not on=20 >Leo's great work.=20 > >totus=20 > > > >----- Original Message ----=20 >> From: Leo Molas =20 >> To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 >> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 2:17:01 PM=20 >> Subject: Re: [lojban] Open approach (was "cultural fu'ivla")=20 >>=20 >> El 03/04/2010 10:44 a.m., Jorge Llamb=EDas escribi=F3:=20 >> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010=20 >> at 10:14 AM, Leo Molas <> href=3D"mailto:leos.molas@gmail.com">leos.mola= s@gmail.com>=20 >> wrote:=20 >>>>=20 >>>> AR -> gugde'aru=20 >>>> US=20 >> -> gugde'usu=20 >>>> AO -> gugde'a'o=20 >>>> LU ->=20 >> gugdelu'u=20 >>>> RW -> gugderuve=20 >>>> CL ->=20 >> gugdeculu=20 >>>> SE (Sweden) -> gugdesu'e=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >> Thanks xorxes in correcting it :) but I have a doubt: why=20 >> {gugdelu'u}=20 >>> for example, doesn't break down?=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Because "gd" is not a valid initial, so "gu gdelu'u" is not possible.=20 >>=20 >> There is no other possibility. The only stressed syllable is LU, and=20 >> it=20 >> contains a consonant cluster, so it is a brivla, and since it is=20 >> not a=20 >> lujvo form, it is a valid fu'ivla form. If it was "gugde lu'u"=20 >> it would=20 >> have the stress on GUG, stress is very important to determine=20 >>=20 >> brivla.=20 >>=20 >>> I have to admit that the method doesn't give us a=20 >> beautiful result=20 >>> (neither a resembling one), and I even didn't like=20 >> at all at first, but=20 >>> it's the plainest, it can live among other=20 >> methods easily, and doesn't=20 >>> need too much work (if I, or whoever,=20 >> make a program for it). What do=20 >>> you (jbopre) think?=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> It's even simpler than the method for languages, because it uses the=20 >>=20 >> same prefix for all cases. The resulting forms, with four syllables,=20 >> are=20 >> not too long, and (unlike type-3 fu'ivla) they do sound like=20 >> ordinary=20 >> lojban words. It's true that they don't resemble the name of=20 >> the=20 >> country, but the code is fairly transparent.=20 >>=20 >> I have to say I=20 >> didn't like the idea of using the ISO-codes to form=20 >> fu'ivla at first,=20 >> but now I think it's not such a bad idea at all, as=20 >> long as the method=20 >> used is simple and transparent.=20 >>=20 >> mu'o mi'e xorxes=20 >>=20 >>=20 >Well, I did a little python script that generates the country=20 >> fu'ivla.=20 >This is a extract from the output:=20 > >IO ->=20 >> gugde'i'o=20 > >BN -> gugdebunu=20 > >BG -> gugdebugu=20 > >BF ->=20 >> gugdebufu=20 > >BI -> gugdebu'i=20 > >KH -> gugdekuxe=20 > >CM ->=20 >> gugdecumu=20 > >CA -> gugdecu'a=20 > > >I also did one that generates a=20 >> dictionary-like definition:=20 > > >gugde'i'o =3D x1 is the country with the=20 >> code ISO-3166 "IO" (British=20 >Indian Ocean Territory) for people=20 >> x2=20 > >gugdebunu =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 "BN"=20 >> (Brunei=20 >Darussalam) for people x2=20 > >gugdebugu =3D x1 is the country with=20 >> the code ISO-3166 "BG" (Bulgaria) for=20 >people x2=20 > >gugdebufu =3D x1 is the=20 >> country with the code ISO-3166 "BF" (Burkina Faso)=20 >for people=20 >> x2=20 > >gugdebu'i =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 "BI" (Burundi)=20 >> for=20 >people x2=20 > >gugdekuxe =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166=20 >> "KH" (Cambodia) for=20 >people x2=20 > >gugdecumu =3D x1 is the country with the=20 >> code ISO-3166 "CM" (Cameroon) for=20 >people x2=20 > >gugdecu'a =3D x1 is the=20 >> country with the code ISO-3166 "CA" (Canada) for=20 >people x2=20 > >I extract=20 >> the info from > target=3D_blank >http://www.iso.org/iso/list-en1-semic-3= .txt=20 >(it's in the=20 >> attachments too, as iso-countries.txt).=20 > >country-fuhivla1.py is a python=20 >> program that gives the first map above,=20 >and its output is in the file=20 >> result.txt=20 > >country-fuhivla2.py is almost the same, but it gives the=20 >> dictionary-like=20 >output. All of it is in resultdic.txt=20 > >The language=20 >> fu'ivla can be parsed as well, only with a few=20 >modifications (but it would be=20 >> a really really bigger output file).=20 > >I want to insist in the fact that=20 >> this is a really easy way to coin the=20 >fu'ivla, it treat all countries the=20 >> same way (so is culturally neutral),=20 >and can exist among other fu'ivla coined=20 >> with another method.=20 > >mu'o mi'e .leos.=20 > >--=20 >My lojban journal: > href=3D"http://learninglojban.wordpress.com" target= =3D_blank=20 >> >http://learninglojban.wordpress.com=20 >My personal blog: > href=3D"http://leomolas.tumblr.com" target=3D_blank=20 >> >http://leomolas.tumblr.com=20 > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group.=20 >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.=20 >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegro= ups.com.=20 >For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.=20 > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegro= ups.com. >For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den. > =C5land has a rather different history than Tibet, I think, as it's always = been considered a separate territory, where the case with Tibet is disputed= by the Chinese government. Up until a few years ago, cruise ships could ev= en sell stuff duty-free if just going between Finland and =C5land. But, yeah, politics are going to interfere with any possibility, i'm afraid= . --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0-1699297301-1270326555=:41761 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=C5land has a rather different history than Tibet, I th= ink, as it's always been considered a separate territory, where the case wi= th Tibet is disputed by the Chinese government. Up until a few years ago, c= ruise ships could even sell stuff duty-free if just going between Finland a= nd =C5land.

But, yeah, politics are going to interfere with any poss= ibility, i'm afraid.
 
____________________________________________________________
Actually, even China doesn't dispute that Tibet was once independant.&= nbsp; The
Aland Islands never were.
 
However, imagine a discourse in Lojban about Tibetan history - or inde= pendance.
How strong would your arguements for independance be if you did not ev= en have
a name for Tibet?  Surely this is a case of Sapir-Whorf in practi= ce.
 
Obviously, we need to be able to handle such situations.  An ISO = code has
been suggested for Tibet but presumably rejected by the ISO people.
 
totus

=
-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Apr 3, 2010 12:13, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:

= I wonder why the Aland Islands (which belong to Finland)
have their own= country code, but Tibet doesn't.  Could it
be that politics are i= nterfering, albeit indirectly, even with
our decidedly non-political ex= ercise?

Needless to say, this is a comment on ISO, and not on
L= eo's great work.

totus



----- Original Message ---- =
> From: Leo Molas <leos.molas@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@g= ooglegroups.com
> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 2:17:01 PM
> Subje= ct: Re: [lojban] Open approach (was "cultural fu'ivla")
>
> E= l 03/04/2010 10:44 a.m., Jorge Llamb=EDas escribi=F3:
> On Sat, Apr = 3, 2010
> at 10:14 AM, Leo Molas <> href=3D"mailto:leos.molas@= gmail.com">leos.molas@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>> >>> AR -> gugde'aru
>>> US
> -> gugde'usu
>>> AO -> gugde'a'o
>>> LU -> > gugdelu'u
>>> RW -> gugderuve
>>> CL -&= gt;
> gugdeculu
>>> SE (Sweden) -> gugdesu'e
>= ;>
>>
> Thanks xorxes in correcting it :) but I have a = doubt: why
> {gugdelu'u}
>> for example, doesn't break dow= n?
>
>
> Because "gd" is not a valid initial, so "gu g= delu'u" is not possible.
>
> There is no other possibility. T= he only stressed syllable is LU, and
> it
> contains a conson= ant cluster, so it is a brivla, and since it is
> not a
> luj= vo form, it is a valid fu'ivla form. If it was "gugde lu'u"
> it wou= ld
> have the stress on GUG, stress is very important to determine <= BR>>
> brivla.
>
>> I have to admit that the met= hod doesn't give us a
> beautiful result
>> (neither a resembling one), and I even didn't like
> at all at firs= t, but
>> it's the plainest, it can live among other
> met= hods easily, and doesn't
>> need too much work (if I, or whoever,=
> make a program for it). What do
>> you (jbopre) think? =
>
>
> It's even simpler than the method for languages,= because it uses the
>
> same prefix for all cases. The resul= ting forms, with four syllables,
> are
> not too long, and (u= nlike type-3 fu'ivla) they do sound like
> ordinary
> lojban = words. It's true that they don't resemble the name of
> the
>= country, but the code is fairly transparent.
>
> I have to s= ay I
> didn't like the idea of using the ISO-codes to form
> = fu'ivla at first,
> but now I think it's not such a bad idea at all,= as
> long as the method
> used is simple and transparent.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
>
Well= , I did a little python script that generates the country
> fu'ivla.=
This is a extract from the output:

IO ->
> gugde'i'o=

BN -> gugdebunu

BG -> gugdebugu

BF -> > gugdebufu

BI -> gugdebu'i

KH -> gugdekuxe
<= BR>CM ->
> gugdecumu

CA -> gugdecu'a


I als= o did one that generates a
> dictionary-like definition:

gugde'i'o =3D x1 is the country with the
> code ISO-3166 "IO" (Brit= ish
Indian Ocean Territory) for people
> x2

gugdebunu = =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 "BN"
> (Brunei
Daru= ssalam) for people x2

gugdebugu =3D x1 is the country with
>= the code ISO-3166 "BG" (Bulgaria) for
people x2

gugdebufu =3D = x1 is the
> country with the code ISO-3166 "BF" (Burkina Faso)
f= or people
> x2

gugdebu'i =3D x1 is the country with the code I= SO-3166 "BI" (Burundi)
> for
people x2

gugdekuxe =3D x1 = is the country with the code ISO-3166
> "KH" (Cambodia) for
peop= le x2

gugdecumu =3D x1 is the country with the
> code ISO-31= 66 "CM" (Cameroon) for
people x2

gugdecu'a =3D x1 is the
&g= t; country with the code ISO-3166 "CA" (Canada) for
people x2

I= extract
> the info from > target=3D_blank >http://www.iso.org= /iso/list-en1-semic-3.txt
(it's in the
> attachments too, as iso= -countries.txt).

country-fuhivla1.py is a python
> program t= hat gives the first map above,
and its output is in the file
> r= esult.txt

country-fuhivla2.py is almost the same, but it gives the =
> dictionary-like
output. All of it is in resultdic.txt

= The language
> fu'ivla can be parsed as well, only with a few
modifications (but it would be
> a really really bigger output = file).

I want to insist in the fact that
> this is a really = easy way to coin the
fu'ivla, it treat all countries the
> same = way (so is culturally neutral),
and can exist among other fu'ivla coine= d
> with another method.

mu'o mi'e .leos.

--
My = lojban journal: > href=3D"http://learninglojban.wordpress.com" target=3D= _blank
> >http://learninglojban.wordpress.com
My personal blo= g: > href=3D"http://leomolas.tumblr.com" target=3D_blank
> >ht= tp://leomolas.tumblr.com

--
You received this message because y= ou are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this = group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this = group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more opti= ons, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban= @googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+= unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http= ://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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