From 3lMS3SwcJBlwFSNF8MQAG4CF.6IGFID54HAIIAF8ALIOJM.6IG@groups.bounces.google.com Sat Apr 03 15:43:58 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3lMS3SwcJBlwFSNF8MQAG4CF.6IGFID54HAIIAF8ALIOJM.6IG@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NyC4H-0003WV-OK for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:43:58 -0700 Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5sf4530083vws.16 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:43:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=ciO3gxVKt7ws4YRfQcHk5iF9h98+qSbnFx/GNlvf5Co=; b=nJtwnoLztbwPeyjHDAVOQ5JV2roprKkHwfjmR9+Lr2UF8RtTdW15ebLhcl2tt8AzrM UJSYf7+nEfiC1QJWqY6cr6BEmwiK7c13RymaWb3Eh/LjNK0e/YepCAMs/oOgqpY88ilq tcRo0JvUVqMElI+lySJmWPXrZ0d43yZtbvDfc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=VbdfkGAXVhJBuYERnLyBOABXogUO9YZ02fTL7+o6zHrcBjCXk5ewQprNZ682/9JJuX t39F3ZeWLIFT1rLO9gayPUd3jbfJ+mgifwjFiUEKHgVCUmALSzRUlUJgiMwLqGrYvnn/ KR/CstI3V5nxl4FUq5SYotbVex+qeS/fmY9zM= Received: by 10.220.107.155 with SMTP id b27mr317543vcp.46.1270334612247; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:43:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.47.17 with SMTP id l17ls876427vcf.5.p; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.4.37 with SMTP id 37mr985029vcp.16.1270334610444; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.4.37 with SMTP id 37mr985027vcp.16.1270334610392; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f198.google.com (mail-yw0-f198.google.com [209.85.211.198]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 34si25850266vws.3.2010.04.03.15.43.29; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.198 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.211.198; Received: by ywh36 with SMTP id 36so1684454ywh.4 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:43:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.242.9 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:43:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <452719.41761.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4bb79a74.1602be0a.2ca6.ffffb503@mx.google.com> <452719.41761.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 18:43:29 -0400 Received: by 10.100.19.4 with SMTP id 4mr9587557ans.41.1270334609131; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Open approach (was "cultural fu'ivla") From: MorphemeAddict To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/ddb610b9695dff92 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/19d8afddc375c7c0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6475b441f8b5104835cd359 --0016e6475b441f8b5104835cd359 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So we still need a way to name countries/territories that don't have official ISO designations. Autonyms or even any sort of name word would probably suffice, e.g., la tibEt. stevo On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 4:29 PM, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > > > =C5land has a rather different history than Tibet, I think, as it's alway= s > been considered a separate territory, where the case with Tibet is disput= ed > by the Chinese government. Up until a few years ago, cruise ships could e= ven > sell stuff duty-free if just going between Finland and =C5land. > > But, yeah, politics are going to interfere with any possibility, i'm > afraid. > > ____________________________________________________________ > Actually, even China doesn't dispute that Tibet was once independant. Th= e > Aland Islands never were. > > However, imagine a discourse in Lojban about Tibetan history - or > independance. > How strong would your arguements for independance be if you did not even > have > a name for Tibet? Surely this is a case of Sapir-Whorf in practice. > > Obviously, we need to be able to handle such situations. An ISO code has > been suggested for Tibet but presumably rejected by the ISO people. > > totus > > > -- Sent from my Palm Pre > > ------------------------------ > On Apr 3, 2010 12:13, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > > I wonder why the Aland Islands (which belong to Finland) > have their own country code, but Tibet doesn't. Could it > be that politics are interfering, albeit indirectly, even with > our decidedly non-political exercise? > > Needless to say, this is a comment on ISO, and not on > Leo's great work. > > totus > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Leo Molas > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 2:17:01 PM > > Subject: Re: [lojban] Open approach (was "cultural fu'ivla") > > > > El 03/04/2010 10:44 a.m., Jorge Llamb=EDas escribi=F3: > > On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 > > at 10:14 AM, Leo Molas <> href=3D"mailto:leos.molas@gmail.com"> > leos.molas@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >>> > >>> AR -> gugde'aru > >>> US > > -> gugde'usu > >>> AO -> gugde'a'o > >>> LU -> > > gugdelu'u > >>> RW -> gugderuve > >>> CL -> > > gugdeculu > >>> SE (Sweden) -> gugdesu'e > >> > >> > > Thanks xorxes in correcting it :) but I have a doubt: why > > {gugdelu'u} > >> for example, doesn't break down? > > > > > > Because "gd" is not a valid initial, so "gu gdelu'u" is not possible. > > > > There is no other possibility. The only stressed syllable is LU, and > > it > > contains a consonant cluster, so it is a brivla, and since it is > > not a > > lujvo form, it is a valid fu'ivla form. If it was "gugde lu'u" > > it would > > have the stress on GUG, stress is very important to determine > > > > brivla. > > > >> I have to admit that the method doesn't give us a > > beautiful result > >> (neither a resembling one), and I even didn't like > > at all at first, but > >> it's the plainest, it can live among other > > methods easily, and doesn't > >> need too much work (if I, or whoever, > > make a program for it). What do > >> you (jbopre) think? > > > > > > It's even simpler than the method for languages, because it uses the > > > > same prefix for all cases. The resulting forms, with four syllables, > > are > > not too long, and (unlike type-3 fu'ivla) they do sound like > > ordinary > > lojban words. It's true that they don't resemble the name of > > the > > country, but the code is fairly transparent. > > > > I have to say I > > didn't like the idea of using the ISO-codes to form > > fu'ivla at first, > > but now I think it's not such a bad idea at all, as > > long as the method > > used is simple and transparent. > > > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > > Well, I did a little python script that generates the country > > fu'ivla. > This is a extract from the output: > > IO -> > > gugde'i'o > > BN -> gugdebunu > > BG -> gugdebugu > > BF -> > > gugdebufu > > BI -> gugdebu'i > > KH -> gugdekuxe > > CM -> > > gugdecumu > > CA -> gugdecu'a > > > I also did one that generates a > > dictionary-like definition: > > > gugde'i'o =3D x1 is the country with the > > code ISO-3166 "IO" (British > Indian Ocean Territory) for people > > x2 > > gugdebunu =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 "BN" > > (Brunei > Darussalam) for people x2 > > gugdebugu =3D x1 is the country with > > the code ISO-3166 "BG" (Bulgaria) for > people x2 > > gugdebufu =3D x1 is the > > country with the code ISO-3166 "BF" (Burkina Faso) > for people > > x2 > > gugdebu'i =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 "BI" (Burundi) > > for > people x2 > > gugdekuxe =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 > > "KH" (Cambodia) for > people x2 > > gugdecumu =3D x1 is the country with the > > code ISO-3166 "CM" (Cameroon) for > people x2 > > gugdecu'a =3D x1 is the > > country with the code ISO-3166 "CA" (Canada) for > people x2 > > I extract > > the info from > target=3D_blank > > http://www.iso.org/iso/list-en1-semic-3.txt > (it's in the > > attachments too, as iso-countries.txt). > > country-fuhivla1.py is a python > > program that gives the first map above, > and its output is in the file > > result.txt > > country-fuhivla2.py is almost the same, but it gives the > > dictionary-like > output. All of it is in resultdic.txt > > The language > > fu'ivla can be parsed as well, only with a few > modifications (but it would be > > a really really bigger output file). > > I want to insist in the fact that > > this is a really easy way to coin the > fu'ivla, it treat all countries the > > same way (so is culturally neutral), > and can exist among other fu'ivla coined > > with another method. > > mu'o mi'e .leos. > > -- > My lojban journal: > href=3D"http://learninglojban.wordpress.com" > target=3D_blank > > >http://learninglojban.wordpress.com > My personal blog: > href=3D"http://leomolas.tumblr.com" target=3D_blank > > >http://leomolas.tumblr.com > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e6475b441f8b5104835cd359 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So we still need a way to name countries/territories that don't ha= ve official ISO designations. Autonyms or even any sort of name word would = probably suffice, e.g.,=A0la tibEt.
=A0
stevo

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 4:29 PM, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com= > wrote:
<= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma">


=C5land has a rather different history than Tibet= , I think, as it's always been considered a separate territory, where t= he case with Tibet is disputed by the Chinese government. Up until a few ye= ars ago, cruise ships could even sell stuff duty-free if just going between= Finland and =C5land.

But, yeah, politics are going to interfere with any possibility, i'= m afraid.
=A0
____________________________________________________________
Actually, even China doesn't dispute that Tibet was once independa= nt.=A0 The
Aland Islands never were.
=A0
However, imagine a discourse in Lojban about Tibetan history - or inde= pendance.
How strong would your arguements for independance be if you did not ev= en have
a name for Tibet?=A0 Surely this is a case of Sapir-Whorf in practice.=
=A0
Obviously, we need to be able to handle such situations.=A0 An ISO cod= e has
been suggested for Tibet but presumably rejected by the ISO people.
=A0
totus

=
-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Apr 3, 2010 12:13, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:

I wonder why the = Aland Islands (which belong to Finland)
have their own country code, bu= t Tibet doesn't.=A0 Could it
be that politics are interfering, albeit indirectly, even with
our deci= dedly non-political exercise?

Needless to say, this is a comment on= ISO, and not on
Leo's great work.

totus



----- Original Message ----
> From: Leo Molas <leos.molas@gmail.com>
&g= t; To: lojban@= googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 2:17:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Ope= n approach (was "cultural fu'ivla")
>
> El 03/0= 4/2010 10:44 a.m., Jorge Llamb=EDas escribi=F3:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 201= 0
> at 10:14 AM, Leo Molas <> href=3D"mailto:leos.molas@gmail.com"><= a href=3D"mailto:leos.molas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">leos.molas@gmail.c= om>
> wrote:
>>>
>>> AR -> gugde'aru
&g= t;>> US
> -> gugde'usu
>>> AO -> gugde&= #39;a'o
>>> LU ->
> gugdelu'u
>>&g= t; RW -> gugderuve
>>> CL ->
> gugdeculu
>>> SE (Sweden) ->= gugdesu'e
>>
>>
> Thanks xorxes in correcti= ng it :) but I have a doubt: why
> {gugdelu'u}
>> for = example, doesn't break down?
>
>
> Because "gd" is not a valid initial, so &q= uot;gu gdelu'u" is not possible.
>
> There is no oth= er possibility. The only stressed syllable is LU, and
> it
> = contains a consonant cluster, so it is a brivla, and since it is
> not a
> lujvo form, it is a valid fu'ivla form. If it was &= quot;gugde lu'u"
> it would
> have the stress on GUG= , stress is very important to determine
>
> brivla.
> =
>> I have to admit that the method doesn't give us a
> bea= utiful result
>> (neither a resembling one), and I even didn'= t like
> at all at first, but
>> it's the plainest, it= can live among other
> methods easily, and doesn't
>> need too much work (if I,= or whoever,
> make a program for it). What do
>> you (jbo= pre) think?
>
>
> It's even simpler than the metho= d for languages, because it uses the
>
> same prefix for all cases. The resulting forms, with four syl= lables,
> are
> not too long, and (unlike type-3 fu'ivla)= they do sound like
> ordinary
> lojban words. It's true = that they don't resemble the name of
> the
> country, but the code is fairly transparent.
> > I have to say I
> didn't like the idea of using the ISO-co= des to form
> fu'ivla at first,
> but now I think it'= s not such a bad idea at all, as
> long as the method
> used is simple and transparent.
> <= br>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
>
Well, I did a little= python script that generates the country
> fu'ivla.
This is= a extract from the output:

IO ->
> gugde'i'o

BN -> gugdebunu

= BG -> gugdebugu

BF ->
> gugdebufu

BI -> gug= debu'i

KH -> gugdekuxe

CM ->
> gugdecumu <= br>
CA -> gugdecu'a


I also did one that generates a
= > dictionary-like definition:


gugde'i'o =3D x1 is th= e country with the
> code ISO-3166 "IO" (British
India= n Ocean Territory) for people
> x2

gugdebunu =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 &quo= t;BN"
> (Brunei
Darussalam) for people x2

gugdebugu= =3D x1 is the country with
> the code ISO-3166 "BG" (Bulg= aria) for
people x2

gugdebufu =3D x1 is the
> country with the code IS= O-3166 "BF" (Burkina Faso)
for people
> x2

gug= debu'i =3D x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 "BI" (Bur= undi)
> for
people x2

gugdekuxe =3D x1 is the country with the cod= e ISO-3166
> "KH" (Cambodia) for
people x2

gug= decumu =3D x1 is the country with the
> code ISO-3166 "CM"= (Cameroon) for
people x2

gugdecu'a =3D x1 is the
> country with the cod= e ISO-3166 "CA" (Canada) for
people x2

I extract
= > the info from > target=3D_blank >http://www.iso.org/iso/list-en1-= semic-3.txt
(it's in the
> attachments too, as iso-countries.txt).

c= ountry-fuhivla1.py is a python
> program that gives the first map ab= ove,
and its output is in the file
> result.txt

country-= fuhivla2.py is almost the same, but it gives the
> dictionary-like
output. All of it is in resultdic.txt

The = language
> fu'ivla can be parsed as well, only with a few
mo= difications (but it would be
> a really really bigger output file). =

I want to insist in the fact that
> this is a really easy way to= coin the
fu'ivla, it treat all countries the
> same way (so= is culturally neutral),
and can exist among other fu'ivla coined <= br> > with another method.

mu'o mi'e .leos.

--
M= y lojban journal: > href=3D"http://learninglojban.wordpress.com" t= arget=3D_blank
> >http://learninglojban.wordpress.com
My personal blog: > href=3D= "http://leom= olas.tumblr.com" target=3D_blank
> >http://l= eomolas.tumblr.com

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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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