From 3xWe6SwwJBjMPSPbVPggXVjhVbPXa.RdbadYQPcVddVaTVgdjeh.Rdb@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Apr 05 15:44:47 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3xWe6SwwJBjMPSPbVPggXVjhVbPXa.RdbadYQPcVddVaTVgdjeh.Rdb@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nyv29-00076t-Nb for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:44:46 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf9169800qyk.1 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:44:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=63sxY7HHF/tHJ57vQkxqeLpQnI+TMZxE04FTzUzuKfc=; b=ASMDZO+RVDDH00nnubJZv+ZV2eRyt2/6SQ7QEtP+AraijEgL8DYrWUeniBHvc+Svrj Z/coxl9WoiyE5Ot9ciBEMhLD/wHKI4/FB2o0jY/18Q5CexHjQGA9QVFikGn4iXIzgKxQ Iuxsz9FAD/bre1Qwy52b/m5VaT6+vuv1ZeXRE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=aMDuxOhmqqPM0erVC9tQ7NH1v75Y353QwWGRTkYDsA+YeA/SPKtwy5G06ZXzQC8p03 k+aXYYEYZhqsUcBGCsfQ3whMtU1qOy5+mXlI19IdKMybFx3uQZ0qCyxJ6z8UzK6aOpAg 22hn0muW6xGprO/YUd0AS5wQlb0LA3TdRLLUY= Received: by 10.224.105.105 with SMTP id s41mr261638qao.42.1270507461205; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:44:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.92.132 with SMTP id r4ls1315189qam.1.p; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.87.67 with SMTP id v3mr601143qal.27.1270507459087; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.87.67 with SMTP id v3mr601142qal.27.1270507459026; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f53.google.com (mail-vw0-f53.google.com [209.85.212.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si1561620qyk.3.2010.04.05.15.44.17; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamgarrigus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.53; Received: by mail-vw0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 1so2282278vws.12 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:44:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.74.136 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:44:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BB7D709.1050007@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 18:44:17 -0400 Received: by 10.220.122.220 with SMTP id m28mr2983727vcr.2.1270507457827; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Currency units From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of adamgarrigus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamgarrigus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: adamgarrigus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/39f98ae3f0b3d959 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/2ea07269e8cf8173 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636ed677db5561e04838511a1 --001636ed677db5561e04838511a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/4 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 11:43 PM, komfo,amonan > wrote: > > > > I find myself vehemently opposed to these proposals. Some of the reason= s > > I've stated earlier in this or another related thread, but to summarize= . > > I will make a comment for each of the reasons, but only one of them > (number 2) seems like an actual reason to oppose the proposal. All the > others seem at most like reasons to remain indifferent. > > > 1) There is cultural bias all over the language. Whatever bias is > perceived > > as a result of autonymous vocabulary creation isn't IMHO much of a big > deal > > in comparison. > > Personally, I would agree with that. I wouldn't put cultural > neutrality as the main advantage of making use of the ISO codes to > create fu'ivla, even though this was what started the idea.. Just > forget about cultural neutrality for a minute, is the use of ISO codes > to make fu'ivla still a bad idea? > I suspect that, if it weren't for the cultural neutrality issue, the ISO scheme would be unlikely to have been dreamt up. > 2) The ISO approach yields hundreds of words which are to me frustratingl= y > > similar. > > This is the only one that sounds like an actual reason to me. > > But I'm not sure how valid it is. Of course, if you see an > alphabetical list of all of them together they will look very similar, > but in practice you would be unlikely to be using more than a few at a > time. > > Consider for example: > > gugde'i'e: x1 is the country with ISO code 'IE' (Ireland) > gugde'isu: x1 is the country with ISO code 'IS' (Iceland) > gugdesuzu: x1 is the country with ISO code 'SZ' (Swaziland) > > Both the suffix -land in English and the prefix gugde- in the fu'ivla > give you a hint that it's the name of a country. > The difference in the fu'ivla is actually greater than the difference > between "Ireland" and "Iceland" in English. > > Of course, not that many country names in English use the suffix > -land, but I think in Chinese most country names do use the same > sufffix. (And lujvo ending in "-gu'e" are also quite frequent). > Wikipedia gives about eight countries ending in 'guo2'. [-snip-] > > > > I don't have enough time to devote to Lojban these days to generate 250 > > autonymous words for languages & put them into jbovlaste, or even to > decide > > why they should be brivla rather than cmevla. Shrug. But it's a > fascinating > > discussion. > > It's actually 7704 language codes, not just 250. It's unlikely that > anyone would have the time or the desire to handcraft them one by one. > Oh, I just meant 250 as a good healthy start ;). And I have certainly got the desire, but not the time. > [-snip-] Your comments are appreciated doi xorxes. I may be the sole opponent, & I'm not too thrilled with the typographical innovations either, so maybe I'm just a curmudgeon ;) mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636ed677db5561e04838511a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/4 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 11:43 PM, komfo,amonan <komfoamonan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I find myself vehemently opposed to these proposals. Some of the reaso= ns
> I've stated earlier in this or another related thread, but to summ= arize.

I will make a comment for each of the reasons, but only one of them (number 2) seems like an actual reason to oppose the proposal. All the
others seem at most like reasons to remain indifferent.

> 1) There is cultural bias all over the language. Whatever bias is perc= eived
> as a result of autonymous vocabulary creation isn't IMHO much of a= big deal
> in comparison.

Personally, I would agree with that. I wouldn't put cultural
neutrality as the main advantage of making use of the ISO codes to
create fu'ivla, even though this was what started the idea.. Just
forget about cultural neutrality for a minute, is the use of ISO codes
to make fu'ivla still a bad idea?

I suspect th= at, if it weren't for the cultural neutrality issue, the ISO scheme wou= ld be unlikely to have been dreamt up.

> 2) The ISO approach yields hundreds of words which a= re to me frustratingly
> similar.

This is the only one that sounds like an actual reason to me.

But I'm not sure how valid it is. Of course, if you see an
alphabetical list of all of them together they will look very similar,
but in practice you would be unlikely to be using more than a few at a
time.

Consider for example:

gugde'i'e: x1 is the country with ISO code 'IE' (Ireland) gugde'isu: x1 is the country with ISO code 'IS' (Iceland)
gugdesuzu: x1 is the country with ISO code 'SZ' (Swaziland)

Both the suffix -land in English and the prefix gugde- in the fu'ivla give you a hint that it's the name of a country.
The difference in the fu'ivla is actually greater than the difference between "Ireland" and "Iceland" in English.

Of course, not that many country names in English use the suffix
-land, but I think in Chinese most country names do use the same
sufffix. (And lujvo ending in "-gu'e" are also quite frequent= ).

Wikipedia gives about eight countr= ies ending in 'guo2'.


[-snip-]

>
> I don't have enough time to devote to Lojban these days to generat= e 250
> autonymous words for languages & put them into jbovlaste, or even = to decide
> why they should be brivla rather than cmevla. Shrug. But it's a fa= scinating
> discussion.

It's actually 7704 language codes, not just 250. It's unlikel= y that
anyone would have the time or the desire to handcraft them one by one.
<= /blockquote>

Oh, I just meant 250 as a good healthy start ;). And I= have certainly got the desire, but not the time.
=A0
[-snip-]

Your comments are appreciated doi xorxes. I m= ay be the sole opponent, & I'm not too thrilled with the typographi= cal innovations either, so maybe I'm just a curmudgeon ;)

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

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