From 386O6SwwJBp0J7QQ.J7QQ7OKDJ7FI.9LJILG87KDLLDIBDOLRMP.9LJ@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Apr 05 20:01:33 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f143.google.com ([209.85.211.143]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <386O6SwwJBp0J7QQ.J7QQ7OKDJ7FI.9LJILG87KDLLDIBDOLRMP.9LJ@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nyz2e-0007Se-HJ for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:01:33 -0700 Received: by ywh7 with SMTP id 7sf2083129ywh.26 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:01:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Mm6hT6jobdir+TeUfUOU9ceBJScwR5y7A5taw4C6uCk=; b=MOmqnUGDv0jEyY6lTl0AkiO3ohCrNO1du6GfKwonUSM90d4wPJfrd4xSA4FeGVTA/v zhqHIcsplO34k2HBb64QGMF1tBCHL1PvMBjGmQEFtSXZSLZueBtqBHtpfbrWg/EkRdvu 12+nnO3CGkDOHQO7/AJWMrtmduoE7pAOg32K0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=2rC2Ygcbrsueuub5a6iybatAZSNON3KDJ9bryMI4GAPDG5ItqVErJK+gqwydUO/JRq H/Lg37sKWzPckPtb4lOwubEc9daqkb7Sw1QbFjqD8bTPcW6flFaFZG+ytOaRaHimi574 WK7Ii5YlBdwhp7K5F1R5I9Soax6NzjI3F/kCk= Received: by 10.91.121.20 with SMTP id y20mr366086agm.53.1270522867494; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:01:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.66.23 with SMTP id t23ls934733agk.6.p; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.27.37 with SMTP id e37mr3325175agj.9.1270522865593; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.27.37 with SMTP id e37mr3325166agj.9.1270522865191; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f105.google.com (mail-yw0-f105.google.com [209.85.211.105]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si616211yxe.4.2010.04.05.20.01.03; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.105 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.211.105; Received: by ywh3 with SMTP id 3so825179ywh.31 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:01:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.196.12 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:01:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 23:01:03 -0400 Received: by 10.150.48.2 with SMTP id v2mr7343994ybv.348.1270522863720; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The proposed 'goals' of lojban From: Matt Arnold To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.105 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=matt.mattarn@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/8c345f62e9f946ce X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/3e8efd26aa7aec1f Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hope no one misunderstands, to think that Lojban does not already meet the goals set down in the essay. It does meet them. Of course nothing is perfect-- nor can it ever be-- but Lojban leaves other languages in the dust, since they do not even make the attempt. The reason we need the goals formalized is to guide in clarifying rare words and edge-cases. Given a set of choices on a specific issue, these goals act like weights on a scale to influence the decision. With that in mind, these goals will not cause the BPFK to dither endlessly, trying to perfectly meet the goals; rather, the goals will let the BPFK quickly resolve questions for which there are no answers, the minimum necessary to settle on a release of Lojban version 5. Goal #1 currently reads: "Lojban should be as logical (internally consistent, semantically complete, ??? I don't really know how to define this well) as possible". My suggestion for goal #1 is as follows: "Minimize rule exceptions and maximize how predictably the components combine." What did I miss? -Eppcott On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Kevin Reid wrote: > On Apr 5, 2010, at 20:56, =E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE Oren wrote: > >> Mission: Full expressive freedom: Any meaning expressed in a natural >> language can be expressed in Lojban, and at any desired level of >> ambiguity or precision. > > > We are not interested in supporting ambiguity. We are interested in > supporting vagueness. > > (Ambiguity is discrete; vagueness is continuous. Ambiguity means the > listener has to choose among distinct and possibly very dissimilar meanin= gs; > vagueness means the listener gets a broad but contiguous cluster. Ambigui= ty, > if possible in the language, has to be fixed by rewriting; vagueness can = be > fixed by adding elements.) > > -- > Kevin Reid =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.