From 33bK6SwgJBpY64J.EH4D6C08B.2ECBE910D6EE6B46HEKFI.2EC@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Apr 05 21:05:13 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <33bK6SwgJBpY64J.EH4D6C08B.2ECBE910D6EE6B46HEKFI.2EC@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nz02E-0003Ag-EE for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:05:13 -0700 Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3sf1316530pwi.16 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:05:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=V3/i6ynxss8V66rj102fCoaLM/AydaFEPrSZKLolocE=; b=LZf6Zu7OcXayPgY/OuW7/OEbg5GW9ywg5yxUiNMhRqnbdjRoZR+VJUJHTI5/uU44fz Me7Uu4YDA4en3q92lHqFVtfrOBiK7BNmb6nTLCbdz7uzeQiVoMeOyTWQDEqgvCHWmAj/ OEXvxI0ft6EA+WwL3zpzezvcw+0xDakbpkzVU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=aCg7ijwg2HkFt7HvruzolMZlGY9NWb5uCGQ73Yxk8fXv3hh0FGQGza11wEaiQILtRs sZjWBeoeYxIsHm0sS+uvNZiU3/yaLxZxXxagm0tUurbGTNu07U1/JBjJ3gMijL6WlvSd Lb4yUSg1uauVEw4mU+FJ2lNVoii/zk4vicQHY= Received: by 10.142.247.8 with SMTP id u8mr185591wfh.38.1270526685997; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:04:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.2.23 with SMTP id 23ls1050530wfb.3.p; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.67.32 with SMTP id p32mr1056238wfa.21.1270526684305; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.67.32 with SMTP id p32mr1056237wfa.21.1270526684282; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f50.google.com (mail-pw0-f50.google.com [209.85.160.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si2740513pzk.12.2010.04.05.21.04.43; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.50; Received: by pwj1 with SMTP id 1so3661194pwj.23 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:04:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 21:04:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Oren Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:04:23 +0800 Received: by 10.143.194.4 with SMTP id w4mr1952821wfp.218.1270526683143; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The proposed 'goals' of lojban To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/8c345f62e9f946ce X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/9eb021117066788e Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How about isolating 'optimization constraints' completely hierarchically? Epcott's first three [consisting goal 1, "logical"]: 1.1 Maximize regularity (machine readable) 1.2 Maximize predictability (internal consistency) 1.3 Maximize interoperability (flexible grammar) Then my attempts at the remaining three (from the article): [consisting goal 2, "usable"]: 2.1 Minimize semantic ambiguity (formalized definitions) 2.2 Minimize length (brevity) 2.3 Minimize core vocabulary (simplicity) [consisting goal 3, "unique"] 3.1 Minimize conformity to any particular natural language's conventions (linguistic cultural neutrality) 3.2 Minimize non-empirical specification (culturally unbiased) 3.3 Minimize cultural context ('cultural neutrality' -- recursive definition, inherently part of 2.2?) [consisting goal 4, "backwards compatible"] 4.4 Minimize changes to the language ...I understand now the line about not caring much about backward compatibility-- it's the last tie-breaker. I agree with it keeping that position too. =3Dp co'o mi'e korbi On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 11:01, Matt Arnold wrote: > I hope no one misunderstands, to think that Lojban does not already > meet the goals set down in the essay. It does meet them. Of course > nothing is perfect-- nor can it ever be-- but Lojban leaves other > languages in the dust, since they do not even make the attempt. > > The reason we need the goals formalized is to guide in clarifying rare > words and edge-cases. Given a set of choices on a specific issue, > these goals act like weights on a scale to influence the decision. > > With that in mind, these goals will not cause the BPFK to dither > endlessly, trying to perfectly meet the goals; rather, the goals will > let the BPFK quickly resolve questions for which there are no answers, > the minimum necessary to settle on a release of Lojban version 5. > > Goal #1 currently reads: "Lojban should be as logical (internally > consistent, semantically complete, ??? I don't really know how to > define this well) as possible". > > My suggestion for goal #1 is as follows: "Minimize rule exceptions and > maximize how predictably the components combine." What did I miss? > > -Eppcott > > > On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Kevin Reid wrote: >> On Apr 5, 2010, at 20:56, =E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE Oren wrote: >> >>> Mission: Full expressive freedom: Any meaning expressed in a natural >>> language can be expressed in Lojban, and at any desired level of >>> ambiguity or precision. >> >> >> We are not interested in supporting ambiguity. We are interested in >> supporting vagueness. >> >> (Ambiguity is discrete; vagueness is continuous. Ambiguity means the >> listener has to choose among distinct and possibly very dissimilar meani= ngs; >> vagueness means the listener gets a broad but contiguous cluster. Ambigu= ity, >> if possible in the language, has to be fixed by rewriting; vagueness can= be >> fixed by adding elements.) >> >> -- >> Kevin Reid =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.