From 3J7S6SwgJBuEJHW.RUHQJPDLO.FRPORMEDQJRRJOHJURXSV.FRP@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Apr 05 21:10:40 2010 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3J7S6SwgJBuEJHW.RUHQJPDLO.FRPORMEDQJRRJOHJURXSV.FRP@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nz07X-0003SL-D1 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:10:40 -0700 Received: by pvf33 with SMTP id 33sf900219pvf.16 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:10:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=izNRU85uE9C01dyyy2q4jz0Acgg27Q4phYWWIiC/CpE=; b=M06SxnuwR5iZmY4fRFQLGTICwO8G4z2CutwgpXBee98YBw0hlOiesTboUiEv5lee/8 g/98Lmdve6UpH9x1Cazsj82RMicIjPr992uKZTwXBay+Yy43inD5v1ztAf59BJqGivEv 1fvMNk1fLAuzKolvSbutdDNVxIOqCe/q2Dm14= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Zh0Zcdk4acfaWOwreN9g92OKUX5vk/UQLpVbnaNVr7ud/jtZOvgraVldpyOzQU/QyF 3qggv89cXFvzD0Sx5ichGijjDZ2SN9rjxa3ynpajtHWCKYa7LkiyxNhigwo4WIIfNMVQ ghnrvq4DACCxfTc+hmgbua9DVOZ5x4UNKhHO8= Received: by 10.142.2.13 with SMTP id 13mr188611wfb.3.1270527015204; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:10:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.152.26 with SMTP id z26ls1060571wfd.1.p; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.136.7 with SMTP id o7mr1063326wfn.12.1270527012701; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.136.7 with SMTP id o7mr1063325wfn.12.1270527012667; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f51.google.com (mail-pw0-f51.google.com [209.85.160.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si2762894pzk.5.2010.04.05.21.10.11; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.51; Received: by pwj7 with SMTP id 7so3585999pwj.24 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:10:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 21:09:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Oren Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:09:50 +0800 Received: by 10.143.194.4 with SMTP id w4mr1953993wfp.218.1270527011513; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The proposed 'goals' of lojban To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/8c345f62e9f946ce X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e5d476a6c3dd637c Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oops, I meant that 2.1 (formalized definitions) precludes 'cultural neutrality' in any sense not covered by: > 3.1 Minimize conformity to any particular natural language's > conventions (linguistic cultural neutrality) > 3.2 Minimize non-empirical specification (culturally unbiased) co'o mi'e korbi On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 12:04, Oren wrote: > How about isolating 'optimization constraints' completely hierarchically? > > Epcott's first three [consisting goal 1, "logical"]: > 1.1 Maximize regularity (machine readable) > 1.2 Maximize predictability (internal consistency) > 1.3 Maximize interoperability (flexible grammar) > > Then my attempts at the remaining three (from the article): > > [consisting goal 2, "usable"]: > 2.1 Minimize semantic ambiguity (formalized definitions) > 2.2 Minimize length (brevity) > 2.3 Minimize core vocabulary (simplicity) > > [consisting goal 3, "unique"] > 3.1 Minimize conformity to any particular natural language's > conventions (linguistic cultural neutrality) > 3.2 Minimize non-empirical specification (culturally unbiased) > 3.3 Minimize cultural context ('cultural neutrality' -- recursive > definition, inherently part of 2.2?) > > [consisting goal 4, "backwards compatible"] > 4.4 Minimize changes to the language > > ...I understand now the line about not caring much about backward > compatibility-- it's the last tie-breaker. I agree with it keeping > that position too. =3Dp > > co'o mi'e korbi > > On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 11:01, Matt Arnold wrote: >> I hope no one misunderstands, to think that Lojban does not already >> meet the goals set down in the essay. It does meet them. Of course >> nothing is perfect-- nor can it ever be-- but Lojban leaves other >> languages in the dust, since they do not even make the attempt. >> >> The reason we need the goals formalized is to guide in clarifying rare >> words and edge-cases. Given a set of choices on a specific issue, >> these goals act like weights on a scale to influence the decision. >> >> With that in mind, these goals will not cause the BPFK to dither >> endlessly, trying to perfectly meet the goals; rather, the goals will >> let the BPFK quickly resolve questions for which there are no answers, >> the minimum necessary to settle on a release of Lojban version 5. >> >> Goal #1 currently reads: "Lojban should be as logical (internally >> consistent, semantically complete, ??? I don't really know how to >> define this well) as possible". >> >> My suggestion for goal #1 is as follows: "Minimize rule exceptions and >> maximize how predictably the components combine." What did I miss? >> >> -Eppcott >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Kevin Reid wrote: >>> On Apr 5, 2010, at 20:56, =E7=99=BD=E6=9D=BE Oren wrote: >>> >>>> Mission: Full expressive freedom: Any meaning expressed in a natural >>>> language can be expressed in Lojban, and at any desired level of >>>> ambiguity or precision. >>> >>> >>> We are not interested in supporting ambiguity. We are interested in >>> supporting vagueness. >>> >>> (Ambiguity is discrete; vagueness is continuous. Ambiguity means the >>> listener has to choose among distinct and possibly very dissimilar mean= ings; >>> vagueness means the listener gets a broad but contiguous cluster. Ambig= uity, >>> if possible in the language, has to be fixed by rewriting; vagueness ca= n be >>> fixed by adding elements.) >>> >>> -- >>> Kevin Reid =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/loj= ban?hl=3Den. >> >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.